In this special episode focusing on the inclusion and diversity, our panellists have an open and honest discussion about what it's like to be a black woman in the startup world and how their experiences have developed throughout the years.
Tina Charisma, Dionne Jude, Anna Flockett & Steph Melodia have an open and honest discussion about what it's like to be a black woman in the startups industry
Cereal entrepreneur.
Hello and welcome to a special episode for serial entrepreneur podcast and from startups magazine. My name is Anna Flockett. And today I will be your host for a very special episode focusing on females and especially about the current movement, Black Lives Matter. I am so pleased to be joined today by my lovely co host, Steph Melodia, the founder of glue, the marketing agency for startups. Steph, it's lovely to have you on how are you today?
Steph 0:34
Thank you so much Anna I'm very well thank you and pleasure to be here co hosting this podcast episode with you today. As Anna said, my name is Stephanie melodia. I am the founder of bloom which is a startup marketing agency, which I founded two and a half years ago. We exist exclusively to support entrepreneurs with their exciting business journeys through practical marketing and beautiful creativity and the whole topic of feminism, Diversity, Inclusion is something that I'm very passionate about. So an honour to be co hosting this special episode with you today. We're actually joined today by Dion Jude who is a co founder and coach, and Tina charisma, who's a social entrepreneur and writer. Tina, would you like to kick off with your intro? Please?
Tina 1:21
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Startup magazine is such an awesome platform. And we've done projects together actually. So it's a pleasure to be part of the awesome work that you guys do, putting entrepreneurs at the forefront of change a bit about me. So my background is in international development, I am a social entrepreneur. So I primarily work on projects under my NGO called charisma campaign, which is an advocacy and cultural platform. We work to empower communities, both at the community minority level and internationally as well. So we work on a lot of women programme from events to actually social activism and writing on social justice issues which I do most of within that area. In terms of my work. I have been actually working within the sector for over 10 years now as even a teenager where I started with mindful movement with activism, which I was very passionate about. So that's worked a long way over the years.
Steph 2:26
Amazing. And as this is the serial entrepreneurs podcast, and most important question, what's your favourite cereal?
Tina 2:32
My favourite cereal is cocoa pops, but I am ashamed to say this right now because now I have to eat Weetabix. I'm trying to be healthy. Those cheeky things of like eating cocoa pods is out the windows. I kind of been bad for that. Now I'll say Coco Pops/Wheatabix
Steph 2:51
Just take the cocoa puffs. It's all good. I'm going to actually just take this opportunity quickly, just as you say coco pops to plug another female founded business, which is called blondies kitchen which actually sells bottles of not chocolate milk but Coco pop milk. It is amazing. You need to check that out for sure. Thank you so much Tina. Dion, would you like to give us your intro please?
Dion 3:16
Hey everybody hope you are well. So my name is Dion Jude. I am a serial entrepreneur. It feels like I've been in business for a very long time. I however, returned to business only about two years ago. My first business was a business called nappy cakes UK, which was a unique baby gift, which was over about 15 years ago now. And I eventually got that business into Selfridges. I don't want into the world of education, and I've been in education for about 10 years. I'm currently working as a deputy head teacher in a school, but then I left last year to return to business. I believe that I am a true entrepreneur at heart. I wanted to get back into developing my ideas. So one of the ideas that I've developed is called Overstand You it is a self coaching plan. form which assists individuals to know and grow themselves using radical self inquiry so using questions that they can use to increase their self awareness, and over the carpet period, I've just started a business with my daughter. She is 17 years old. I saw that she was lounging around after finishing her, B tech studies and A level waiting to go on to university and I thought, why don't we do something together? So we've just launched something called one link up and just really allowing her to learn the skills which hopefully will be useful for her in the future.
Anna Flockett4:32
Incredible. Wow.
Tina 4:33
That is amazing. And most importantly, Dion, what's your favourite cereal? As a serial entrepreneur? I'm expecting a good answer.
Dion 4:41
Well, I'm actually gluten intolerance so I don't eat cereal. However, If I had to choose Tina, I definitely would have said coco pops. And I think it's that it's that two in one you get the rest Chris Krispies but also you get the chocolate the same time.
Steph 4:56
Cocoa Pops is a winner and I don't know if anyone's had the chance to ask you that. Question. What's your favourite?
Anna Flockett5:01
Thank you? No, they haven't. I think mine's a really weird one but I'm a standard Cheerios girl like,
Tina 5:06
oh, cheerios is good. I like Cheerios.
Dion 5:09
I'm not mad cherrios is good stuff. I'm not mad at all.
Anna Flockett5:14
And Steph, we cannot ask you What is your favourite cereal?
Steph 5:18
Okay, well obviously I can't say Cocoa Puffs now. So I'm going to go Frosties because you still got the good stuff that the cocoa box gives you because you still got the sweet milk and everything afterwards.
Anna Flockett5:29
Amazing. Well, thank you all for your amazing intros, I can tell I'm surrounded by some incredible women today. So I'm really excited about our chat. It was nice to get off, you know, to a light hearted start and then bit more about each other. And I'm excited to learn more about you guys and your experiences. So obviously with you know, the recent events that have gone on, it's brought the Black Lives Matter movement about which is a great thing, you know, bringing it to light and like making a lot more people realise and we wanted to take It's time to do this podcast to kind of educate other people I know I myself needed some more education, and I want to learn and I want to be part of the movement and help so we thought why not better to have this open conversation and speak to two people that can obviously talk about their personal experiences and what they've been through and their opinions. It doesn't have to be what you've been through it can just be what you think as well, it's, it's good to get like a mixture of opinions. So I thought the first question may be an obvious one, but obviously with the whole recent events, and then the Black Lives Matter movement coming about how has this made you Dion and Tina feel as black women?
Dion 6:39
I think to myself, I think it's pretty sad I think when I saw it, and definitely didn't want to watch it again. So really, really sad but also a sense of Here we go again, as a black woman, these incidents seem to be happening on a regular basis and not even to say that I've been become desensitised. I don't even feel desensitised. Because every time that it happens, It's just to see what is the last one. And but it's just really sad that it is still happening. And you know that people are now out on the street, but actually out on the street together really supporting the cause. But also it goes beyond the course. So I think that it's great. We've got the Black Lives Matter movement, but also let's have a real in depth look at inequality, inclusion and diversity. So I hope that it doesn't stop when the marches stop. Definitely.
Anna Flockett7:27
I couldn't agree more. Tina, how is it made? You feel?
Tina 7:29
Yeah, I think similar to Deion Actually, these are issues that have been ongoing for generations. So I think my first initial reaction was just like there is this continuation of these issues that for such a long time have remained on the surface because I do think it's the fact that Oh, wow, here again, like we have another issue that's happened over another few years. But these are actual subtle issues that occur in people's lives. And it just Take sometimes extreme cases for people to kind of realise how extreme these issues are. But nevertheless, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen every day. So I think it was just like the reaction of just being able to kind of portray to the world like, this is what happens. And I've interacted with a lot of people, both within the community, the black community and outside. And it has been interesting to host these conversations and to come together. I've actually been personally part of some of the protests over in London, and it's just the feeling the atmosphere, and just the whole vibe of the movement is just so powerful. So I think for me, it's just been like a awakening moment that I felt that it's about time that people saw this for what it is, and stood up to kind of really defend and to stand by the black community in order to kind of bring about some of these changes,
Dion 8:59
you know, oh, So when it happened, and there was no immediate response, I think for me, it was like, that was maybe expected because that's just what happens, you know, black people get killed. And then this is the usual response that actually we have to fight for there to be to be justice. And so, you know, is it the case again, that nobody's really listening, nobody's really interested. It's just another black life that's gone. And therefore So be it, so when, you know, it's really interesting that now people are willing to have these conversations. And you know, they're willing to have a really good look at themselves and to really learn and black, white, Asian, you know, across the board, not just not just white people, or Caucasian people, you know, everybody's now interested in having the debate and i think that's that's really key.
Tina 9:42
It's a blessing in disguise if I can use that obviously treading carefully because no one wish for that to happen. And you're quite right, Dion. You know, that video that went viral was absolutely sickening. And as we're taught, we've only just started the conversation and I feel physically sick. I can feel I can feel And my God, I can feel it in my chest. But you're right at the very least, I don't want to say necessarily the positives that have come from it, but it has provided a catalyst for these conversations. And to your point, as long as it is, it's a catalyst for sustainable change that it's not just Are you post your black picture on Instagram? And that's that it's what are we going to do? We need to take this much more seriously,
Dion 10:23
I will have to kind of step in and just kind of steer that because from that perspective, I know a lot of people will find problematic it's not a blessing in disguise, in a sense of the fact it doesn't take a black life to kind of be the last for the world to kind of react in that sense. That's a life, you know. And I think platforms like this everyone is like chiming in from different perspectives. So it's worth to kind of correct this while we're at it. Yeah, for sure. But the point that I'm trying to make as well is just the fact that people go to extremities of these things. And it's part of their lives. And I think sometimes the world has just taken to it as like, well, there's a blacklight. But that's, that's someone's son and I wrote a piece for vogue the other day, and it was like, What does someone sign that someone's proper, you know that someone's family member, and they have lost their life to a system that is oppressive, and the pain that they're going to be feeling like no one in the world has any place to kind of compromise that at all. Because it's right, in a sense of the momentum that has been backed over the last few months after the whole death has been enormous. But it shouldn't be happening. That is not the platform for people to be dying, and there's not a victory death, you know, I mean, so my point is the fact that we have to do better in terms of what I do agree with what you're saying, and that sense of the sustainability aspect of it. This can't just be an event and it's failed if it continues to be, hey, another black person, like we've had it here in the UK. And that's why people have actually taken up to the streets because we have our own history of racial discrimination in our systems, you know, with with our young black men, you know, without young black boys and women. So this, for me is a time for people actually to wake up to the realities, rather than seeing the kind of analyzation of that and the media and just thinking, oh, wow, yeah, like, no, it's not just about the glamorization. It's about that activeness of people to actually look deep within themselves and think how can I change this because everyone is part of the problem at the same time. No, that's totally Of course seen. And I think that also to connect the dots a little bit there, Dion what you were sharing before about how your radical self coaching that you've developed and actually, those what was it it How is it that you phrase that with the power of the self inquiry? I think there's that's extremely pertinent nowadays. These times, right? Whether it's white people in particular for ally ship and looking at it to your point to actually to use this as an opportunity to finally look within yourselves be more active about how you course correct all of your daily actions, your unconscious bias, all these things that you do without having so much of that awareness usually.
Yeah. And you know, going back to just briefly what you were saying before Tina, there's something about this particular event because it's happened before and it's happened since so there was something quite unique about this, that's allowed that learning to happen. But I think in terms of that self inquiry, it goes on so many different levels. So it goes on on a personal level, and that's black why Asian alike and but also on an institutional level as well. Now, one thing that you never say is that you fully understand, you know, with somebody when you've not been through that experience yourself, you can empathise, but understand it is a whole different, different category. So, you know, just as long as we do continue that self inquiry and that we just don't have another inquiry and from the government, hundreds of thousands As a pound spent, you know, just to come up with a few recommendations that aren't fully implemented. But those questions are definitely crucial. 100%.
Anna Flockett14:07
And I guess that leads on to my next kind of big question and kind of area, but you both kind of already touched on it. But where do you think that main root of the problem lies? Where is it stemmed from? And how is it got so out of control?
Dion 14:22
Well, race like a lot of the other social evils that we face, it's a historical thing. It's a psychological thing. And I, when I'm often asked questions like this, I just pretty much want to take it back to the basics, as in this is our histories, and these are histories playing out in our present times and our current realities. And the problem is that we haven't questioned a lot of the things enough or we have but people are also somehow like comfortable in their privileges, that they refuse to kind of shake the tables to an extent where we can have some actual real meaningful change. Because right now in 2020, if as an organisation you're now going around sending emails and doing policies around diversity and inclusion in 2020, like, hey, like, really, if you're now in that position when you're doing that, like, I'm actually questioning your role right now. And on the morning and a few weeks, between the process he was getting emails from clients that we've worked with and people passing out things that can you do this. I was exhausted that week, because I've been like opportunities are there the spaces are that but people do not want to do what is right. So in terms of the roots, I, I strongly believe that is a part of a civilization that we really need to challenge and make sure that our systems are aligned with our processes of challenging the norms in which we have accepted for so long.
Anna Flockett16:00
I agree. And before I come on to you on something that just came into my head as, as you were saying that there is something that's come out of the recent events a lot is people saying it's no good. Now to not be racist, you need to be anti racist. And I've never thought about it like that before. But not saying just because you're not being racist actively doesn't mean that you're also helping, like, that's what they say, Now, isn't it like being silent, is sometimes just as harmful. And I I'm not because I'm a bad person. I just hadn't thought about it. And that is my fault. But I think this now it's like making people realise a bit more. And it's, it's like a wake up call that we should have had a long time ago. So like, it's our own fault. But like, if we can talk about something that's like, good that has come out of it. It has made people realise and I'm sorry, it's taken that long, but I'm glad now that I have realised that sorry, Dion, what what were you going to say about you know, where the three tips to problem lies.
Dion 17:01
Yeah, I think you know, these conversations have been happening for a very long time. And they happen in different ways in different places. I think the differences now people are willing to listen more than before. You know, I grew up in, in Preston in Lancashire, I live in London now, but I'm a Lancashire lass. And I remember, you know, growing up, and not giving away my age, but growing up in the 70s and 80s, you know, being a primary school, you know, one of the things was, you know, I was the only black person in my, in my year at school, and faced quite a lot of racism and never really understood, you know, as a child, you know, where is this? Where is this coming from, but also remembering the certain conversations that we don't have around white people. These are conversations that we have within within our group, because they won't understand them. When you try to have these conversations. You know, about then people would say, Oh, you've got a chip on your shoulder, and eventually just shut you up. And you wouldn't you wouldn't say anything. And but going back to the root, you know, I believe that the root is stems back to the development of white supremacy. You know, the idea of That whiteness is better than anything else, you know, why do we have the concept of black and white in the first place, and then you've got Asian, Chinese, all of these different people can be labelled and identified according to their country of origin. I want to call the black woman because of the event of transatlantic slavery, where Africans were taken from Africa taken to the Caribbean and the Americas. And as a result of that, we've now got this identity. And there's lots of debate out there, whether we should be called black or whether we should be called African. But Africa in itself is a massive continent. With a wealth of different countries a wealth of you know, even one country can have a wealth of different languages. But we have this idea and this concept of blackness, but also, it's a game gainst whiteness, so I think if we really want to have a true conversation, we need to look at the root which is white supremacy, which was fueled by, um, scientific racism in the 1800s. You know, this whole idea that there are five different races, you know, and one is better than the other, you know, went on for hundreds of years and definitely supported the idea that we have some groups are better than others. And therefore we can pitch one against another and look at them differently if you're looking at the root cause that's where I believe it has come from, you know, can we ever get to the root of understanding white supremacy? Maybe not. But let's start having a conversation.
I agree with that, to and to even add to that as well, in terms of conversation, and I've said this for years. In fact, I'm even more irritated by this some of these movement and the fact that I feel like a lot of the things I've been saying been saying for years, you know, I have made a video at the back of somewhere on my social media where I was like out doing a protest, I think that was like 2017 or something like that, like, on fascism within our local area. And these conversations are super uncomfortable. In fact, I've been saying things like this again, for years where I'm like, the conversation that we need to have this so uncomfortable, but we need to have it and the fact that it's uncomfortable is the reason why we need to have it because people have gone through things over the course of history, where they were, you know, putting in shameful positions where they were stripped of everything where they will looted, you know, and that was, that was literally so, so bad and so uncomfortable that we have generations after is still paying the cost of that. That's brutal. So there is no conversation that we can have that does not eroose some kind of conflict in uncovered because it is a history of that. And it boils down to us making some of these drastic changes that will represent just the shifts that we have had to make over the course of history
Steph 20:44
To chip in how I've been aware of how physically sick this conversation in itself is making me feel and then quickly realised if just a conversation is making you feel uncomfortable, then imagine actually living your life like this every single day. So, again, there isn't an understanding, I will never be able to understand. But there is certainly that empathy. At least that's what's going on in my stomach at the moment. And just to also touch on a comment that you made as well there before Dion. So my my partner's conversation today is because I hosted a series of Instagram Live interviews over the past few weeks and use that as an opportunity to bring on board guests who were people of colour Africa and black. Again, it's like, not exactly sure if I'm saying the right thing or what terminology to use. And there was a few things that came out of those conversations that I'd like to use this as an opportunity to amplify their voices. But what I mentioned just quickly now is Deon, you were saying before about this concept of blackness and how Africa in itself you Africa is a continent, that's not a country, there's many countries within that one single continent. And, you know, just within these few interviews that I hosted, I had guests who had ancestry from Ghana, Jamaica, Kenya. Some of them were born in the UK. One was born in Germany in Europe. And you think how is this single brush that everyone has been tarnished with because they happen to have been born with more melanin in their skin, like that's literally what it comes down to. So it is here from an anthropological perspective, if you like, it can be extremely, I think any social injustice. If you are able to extrapolate yourself from the problem for a second, it can be quite fascinating to actually look at and just like when you break it down, it's just beyond ridiculous. There's no there's no words for it is crazy. The other thing I just want to mention just before I do forget is how in one of these interviews that somebody else opened my eyes to so I had guests included Mandy nyarko, Baba tingy Fairbank, the jazz brought in Nancy Obama have not forgetting anybody, and they all shared such amazing like pearls of wisdom and really open my eyes during these conversations. I remember one of them saying this isn't a black person's problem is that this is the other thing, right? Like why I think you were saying as well before about how the conversation previously was restricted to within your own circles as if it's your problem as if you were the ones who have to find the solution. Whereas actually, white supremacy is the issue here. Actually, this is a wider social issue actually is something that white people need to actively consider and take into account. And we shouldn't be relying on p we shouldn't be relying on It's fantastic to be using these platforms to give you guys a voice and amplify what it is that you're saying, you know, it's bad enough if you like that you happen to have been born with some more melanin in your skin, you know, and the racism and everything else that you've encountered by default of that fact, without the added pressure of you having the unrequested obligation to have to be the educators for the rest of society as well.
Dion 23:52
Yeah. And also education all around you know, just because somebody is Black or African does not mean you know, I was learning African history from A very young age at secondary school. There's many people that I know that happen to just come to it as adults. And there are people who are far beyond who knows so much more about the history than I. And, you know, even some of the circles that I'm in, you know, I'm still amazed by all the things that they're talking about, because I've had no clue about this. You know, I was in a debate the other day where somebody was saying, Oh, you shouldn't be call ourselves African, because African actually was a European name imposed on the continent. I'd never heard of that before. So I'm also you know, it's not an awesome situation. It's an education is an education and education all around and really uncomfortable conversations, but it's the willingness to come to the table, to listen, to be open and to really engage in something and to be prepared to be part of the change.
Tina 24:42
I agree with that Dion I am definitely off the point of view where I feel like the conversations do need to be had just because the importance of empathy is so important in this just because everyone is learning at the same time. The essence of everyone is on a journey. And I think having the uproach to want to know is such a great place to be, because that's the place which will unlock the future. And I know there's going to be a lot of people who disagree with this. And a lot of my view is just very much trying to represent the diverse views out there. So this particular view is my own. It's my own in a sense of, I feel like there really needs to be that element of compassion and empathy of creating communities and having platforms like this, where people can can feel education, because I once said, within a community, if you haven't crossed paths with someone, sometimes you just have no idea what that community is going to do unless you actually communicate and, you know, learn a lot about each other. And that's sometimes that's what the divide requires for you to just cross over to another side to see what the reality of others are. And the more you do that, the more You learn. And I say this because even in a time of pride and transgender issues, I've had to be in a position where I'm learning where I've had to be in a position where, and broadening my awareness and skills and just understanding the depth of it. And there's just so many complexities within our society, not an excuse for any injustice, again, but I'm just trying to highlight the importance of us to just put ourself in that point of education and, and nobility, to be able to kind of take away the layers of what we feel we know and be accepting of the knowledge that comes away. And that's the only future forward in my opinion.
Anna Flockett26:39
100% as you were just saying, we're all human. At the end of the day, everyone is human and that what you just said Tina, about, you know, labelling and inclusion in every sense. Obviously, we're here today to talk about, you know, racism and the colour of your skin and stuff, but like, there's so many aspects in life that people are penalised for that they can't Help been been a woman, you know, we're still on that battle as well. And that, like you mentioned is Pride Month, but like there's so many things that humans are just nasty about. And it is baffling because at the end of the day, no matter what colour your skin is, what gender you are, what what you identify as what your sexuality is, we're all human, like, everyone is the same. And it's taken me maybe until I'm 26 years old to realise, like, we're so horrible as a human.
Dion 27:30
We have so much to add to that one thing that over the last few weeks I've just really had an opportunity to zone into is the fact that civilization is such a still new developed species, you know, human times, were really not that old, in a sense, you know, with the constant changes in the capacity in our world and as well, it does, it will take time it will take a lot of shifts and great him and again, none of what I'm saying As an excuse for anything, okay? Because the fact is that the opportunities have been there for all this time. And what a lot of people are frustrated about is the fact that, hey, this is not the first time this is not the second time, you know, and that is the problem that is a point of anger. But I do have a lot of people, it's just like, oh, how long, but then at the same time, it's really about time for people to wake up with an awareness of just the realities of our society and just the challenges of people that people experience beyond your own personal lives and how you can connect with that in order to change and bring about certain kind of cohesion in the relationships we have. And I think it's even great to start off having this conversation and I one of the reasons why I thought this was great. It's just that, you know, creating platforms to have conversations again, like this is awesome. It's a great start, you know, someone else is gonna hit It is who has never met with me, or has never met you on, you know, maybe having access to conversations like this that are more that are open. And that's why I've had to correct some things in terms of the way it's been presented, because ideas go on to amplify people's lives. And the same ideas of us today, you know, making our judgments about race and the ideas of sex. And these are all the things that we need to bring on the review to be able to kind of analyse and correct
Anna Flockett29:35
Yeah, I couldn't agree.
Dion 29:36
Can I just mention one thing? I think one thing that we need to definitely include in this is the concept of power, and you can't divorce that idea from this whole situation. So even though that we've talked about, you know, white and black, even within white, you've got the class system, you know, you've got you've got a hierarchy, you know, there was some groups who are severely disadvantaged, you know, the working customers, so logical perspective, the working class, you know, some would call the underclass who who seriously suffer as a result of their socio economic status. And I think that having a look at power. So the transatlantic slavery system, really developed as a result of capitalism and wanting to keep that whole system going, you know, we're now moving into a postmodern society where things are changing, you know, young people who say, we're no longer going to believe in these grand narratives and all of these amazing what seem to be amazing ideas, we're actually going to challenge your concepts, and your ideas about race, about gender, about sexuality, and age and all of those other things. So it's a it's a really, it's an exciting time.
Anna Flockett30:36
Definitely. And I think that kind of leads us on nicely to my next kind of section. So be it. Tina, I know you do a lot of work, especially in the campaigning for for women, Dion I'm sure you do as well. But my main question is, what kind of challenges do you think you both have faced being a black woman in this industry?
Tina 30:57
So um, I think one of the things Do from what we've already spoken about is this concept of birds of a feather flock together. I think you've heard that say before where, you know people like attracts like. And so sometimes when you walk into a room and you see somebody looks looks like you, if you're a woman, and you're in a room full of men, and there's another woman, then you might just gravitate towards her. And it could just be that sometimes it happens unconsciously. And so there are times, you know, I've even been a keynote speaking event where I've spoken in front of a group of white people, there's no black people don't and it's just me. And even at networking events in regards to business, sometimes you would go and you might be the only black person you might see somebody else. And you know, you kind of have this nod, you acknowledge each other. And so there are so many opportunities in places that I've been in as a startup founder, where I don't see people that look like me. And some people say, well, is that important, this is just business, but I think that it is, especially in regards to your network who is in your network is really important. And there are some networks that just not help Just have not been open to people of colour, which are now becoming more open. So as Tina said, lots of emails are coming through to startup competition that came through yesterday. And this is something that my daughter can enter. And what they're saying is we've been running this competition for five years, and we've never had a person of colour, enter the competition. So there's lots of opportunities. But sometimes you don't know about these opportunities, because you're not part of that network. And these things are only really shared within that network. And sometimes you go but you're you sort of stand out because you're not really part of what's normally going on. So I think not being part of that situation can cause us not to be aware of opportunities, and also think in terms of acceptance as well. I've been along to a lot of networking events, seminars, presentations, exhibitions that are all black for people of colour for people of African descent, and you feel a lot more comfortable because you see people like you can have open conversations You know, people are sharing ideas, people are sharing opportunities, you know, people are being themselves, you know, there's no need to try and look and fit and feel and present in a certain way because actually, you just can just get on and you just, you know, you just have those conversations. And so I think the final thing for me is funding. As I said, the last light just three days the amount of funding that I've had come my way as a startup founder just because of the colour of my skin is amazing. Where was all of that before it's definitely something that we can take advantage of. But it just begs the question is Why?
I mean, everything the developer said I think it goes so much deeper meaning that the whole section ality of it is just very um, it for a lot of people can mean different things. You know, whether you're going or you want to talk about your personal experiences in life or whether you want to talk up talk about entrepreneurship, and honestly, I could go over so much right now, but backtrack. white privilege is real. I believe that white privilege is real. And it's one of the reasons why Dion as you're saying a lot of the things that you're now experiencing, it's not because people actually have the power to do that. And for so long have sat on there. You have a power and you're in a position and my question that I've been asking a lot of white people over the last few weeks, what is in your hands, you want to help stop racism, what is in your hands, because actually, it takes just one individual to reach out to mentor to support to fund you know, to elevate people, and that can go a long way, within my personal work in terms of charisma campaign, even though I'm a woman of colour black woman. I've never created that space, particularly just for black people. That does not go against any of the communities that specifically wrote for black women because it's so needed. aces are so sacred and have so much feeling in them. To me, my purpose has always been to bring about the discussions and create a diverse community that people can interact with people that they've never had an opportunity to meet before. So that's a very core part of my principle when it comes to some cultural immersion and confusion and just horror admiration of all those things. However, we have women organisations that continue to exist, where you have panels and you have things and it's just all white women. How do we feel comfortable with this in 2020? And I'm not talking about last year like Like, right now today, we still have things that are online and going on and people can happily put things out where it's just not represented. And I'm so sure that does, like people. Don't think at all There is no black person who's, who's eloquent enough to speak really like People out there and you have to seek for them, you have to search for them and empower them. I told someone the other day, I need you to empower me in order for me to come and empower you. Because for so long, I'm going to use my personal example, I have felt so drawn out and exhausted by just really being present for communities that have never, ever had the decency to even pull back out into me. And that's insulting. In this day and age, it's just not happening any longer. So I do really want to put the call to action for organisations to really think about how they can empower the black community and the resources that they can pay back into the black community in order to work collaboratively to push forward towards a future that is more representative that is more stronger. You know, it's about strength. It's about sustainability. It's about an equality that is of essence you know, and it's not just about talking and lip service and, and feeling 'oh poor black people' within one day, you know, that's, that's, that doesn't solve it and that's discriminatory in itself, you know, but it's actually really being able to understand the power of diverse economies and being able to print all that together to make your work even stronger. That's an advantage. You know, think about the ideas that people can bring together if they think about being able to expand in working with others and, and can I say, Can I just say I'm not plugging stuff that I can but can I just say that startup magazine has been a great example of that, honestly, from the very first day, I got in touch with one of your marketing This is not an ad, by the way, they didn't pay me to be like, you know, just just a support and, and that's the energy that that I'm been kind of tapped into just people who are just very open to listening and to support even in the little way that they can. And that should be our approach, you know, because every community has a minimum amount of resources, sometimes it can't be big, you know, but you do have something at the end of the day that you can pull back out to support other teams,
Dion 38:13
that's quite important as well is, you know, there are some great opportunities that are out there. And also, I think for for black people, you know, having that confidence to move forward. You know, I have definitely excelled in business so many ways, because I see the opportunity, I go for the opportunity. I have not non no personal barriers, the external barriers that exist, I'm gonna find a way through, you know, I've gotten a mentoring programme, you know, I go to networking events, I'm teaching myself about business, but also it's about having that confidence to speak to people and have that conversation. You know, I found allies in a room where there's only me as a black person who were Northerners, and that's a common thing that we've we've got in common. And so it's about having that confidence getting out there having those conversations and sometimes you know, not assuming that it's not gonna work out because you're black, because also I've had those comments. Sometimes we have colleagues who feel a lack of confidence, or they've had negative experiences and assume that it's going to play out in the same way.
Anna Flockett39:07
Yeah, I have a question. But I don't know if it's too uncomfortable. So you don't have to answer
Unknown Speaker39:13
it. This is about how
Anna Flockett39:15
I know when I feel
Speaker 4 39:18
time in raw. I know,
Anna Flockett39:20
I know how I know. And I'm going in hard. And I don't know if it's not appropriate. But do you think that obviously, sometimes you've had more obstacles because you're a person of colour, but also because you're a woman? So there's two things that people are holding against you? And do you think sometimes it, then you've got to like jump over more barriers? Like has it been even harder for you? And do you have you ever felt that last people ever made you feel like that?
Tina 39:49
I think for me, so I'm just going to jump in there because otherwise I'll forget. I'm working on a project at the moment that requires a lot of self reflection and it's just in the light of all These issues that I've really had an opportunity to self reflect to that level where I think sometimes people just don't know. You know, I started off as a young girl super active and just have worked myself into spaces. But I think some people just don't know how much you carry on is the weight of that that sometimes can be so sad because I grew up in Korea don't like hard working, just going for things for myself. And I had to have people who actually saw my persistence to actually be like, wow, like your talent, your tenacity and just being able to support and people just don't realise the psychological, emotional barriers. It doesn't have to just be your colour is the fact that you are black and sometimes have lived inside to errors or experience certain things in itself is a trauma that a lot of people carry in has its level because not everyone has gone through this. I can only speak for myself. There are things that I've been in cases where it's hurt me, it could have just been to someone saying something, but it's hurt me on a deeper level beyond the surface of it. A pretty great example that I've never actually shared my first ever role that I had. I had I had a manager who was white and she was female. And that's a problem I had. Because I think sometimes as well, like even within the feminist sphere, where you have women who are like, yeah, we're empowering women, but like, how much of other colour women do you kind of encompass within your space? I did correct a woman that I work with and she got emotional. Why? Because I was right. And I'm very I'm never harsh on my approach. Like I said, I'm a firm believer in compassionate empathy. After correcting her, she got emotional about it. And guess who got in trouble? Yeah, that was me. I got in trouble. For me. That was a biggest opportunity. I've had Had to that date I left home to live in an area and have my first ever job that one action took me back years. I had to spend years recovering, she would have never ever known how much that opportunity meant for me at that time. Her response could have been totally different, right. But that's my point in saying that sharing a very uncomfortable story in a platform like this and the fact that sometimes you don't know how much your reaction can impact people. And we do have to be sympathetic and empathetic and compassionate about the people that we deal with because a therapist one says, you know, sometimes our wounds go so much deeper than just the things that we see on the surface that we experienced as members of our tribe or ethnicity or by colour. We have so much things attached to that in itself. So we have to be very Kinda
Dion 43:00
thanks for sharing Tina. I think for me, I think it's built a resilience within me. And I feel like I've been fighting Actually, I've stopped fighting. But I felt for a very long time, I felt that I was constantly fighting and battling, and that I needed a challenge to be able to succeed. And what I realised is that I don't actually need that. But what the whole experience has taught me is to become really resilient. I don't feel that I probably am disadvantage because I'm a woman and black, but I don't acknowledge it, or I don't let that hold me back. You know, I suppose, you know, if somebody is black, disabled, and a woman you know, which which one sort of comes first, it's kind of difficult to safely look at it in that way. So for me, I think the whole experience has taught me to be really resilient. I no longer fights Tina. And but I relish the opportunity. I've learned from being that young girl living in a town where nobody looks like me to come into London where lots of people look like me, but the same issue still persists to now. Reaching out into a sphere of worldwide opportunities, and just seeing what I can make of it.
Anna Flockett44:06
Definitely. And it's really interesting to hear you say, obviously you were fighting and now you've, you've stopped. It's quite powerful to hear as we were talking about power earlier. So yeah, thank you.
Dion 44:17
What was happening is that I almost needed a challenge in my life to give me momentum to me was about to feel motivated, I need to challenge whereas now I don't, I don't have those personal goals. If I want to go for something, I want to go for it simply because,
Anna Flockett44:31
yeah, and Do you feel better now? Do you feel like relief?
Dion 44:35
I do. I do. Because I can create all day I can build all day, and I can support and coach without the need to do it because I'm scared of something or worrying about something. I do it now because I'm empowered and I hope to continue empowering others
Steph 44:50
it comes down to energy. At the end of the day we have our energy is is not an infinite resource, as I found out firsthand in building my own company For the first time, and as you say, it's just part of that not fighting anymore is self preservation, right? Because it's actually this is energy that can be directed towards something more productive. Whatever your definition is about your own business. It's obviously a fight worth fighting but at what cost right to yourself to your own health to your own personal situation. And that's where the whole conversation of ally ship as well has been brought to the forefront in this wider Black Lives Matter conversation because it's not this is not an issue that only one segment of the population with a responsibility lies This is all of us. We can't just leave you fighting the good fight.
Tina 45:42
I love what you said just said right now Dion and i think i'm i'm definitely a space where I found so much peace and that comes with just what I do in the sense of like, what I do and where I'm at right now is so insane. Like, I am just so thankful to God to be In a space where I can just freely manifest and be who I've called to be, it is a privilege in the sense of being able to fully be in an environment where you fully bring yourself. But not everyone has that privilege. And when we talk about fighting, I think there are some people who in a sense, have to continue to fight in the sense of like, they haven't actually reached a point yet where they can walk up, show up and come as they are. And that's the problem we have, in the sense that until everyone reaches that point, then it's like, we still have barriers to break the process. It's going to take time it's going to take education is going to take policy, it's going to take structural adjustments for us to reach that stage. So but as someone who again, has come from a corporate background, and still within that sector, it's just it can be a challenge and sometimes in terms of really being able to adjust when the structures are super tight enough that You can't see me on do those times. Yeah.
Anna Flockett47:03
Sometimes it's about things you were taught wrong, you have to unlearn those things because we were just probably too ignorant and didn't realise how wrong they were. And it's conversations like these. And everything that's going on at the moment is opening, more and more people's eyes to that, to hopefully make a change. Ladies we've spoke about so much. And we have covered my final kind of section. But I do want to ask you, in case there's anything you want to add on, but my final question to you would be, what changes do we need to make in our industry to make it more inclusive?
Tina 47:40
Yeah, I think like we've already established there are systematic changes and needs to be had, as well as being able to have workforces that exemplify the communities that we live in and there there is no way it's two ways about that. If you want to actually be in an environment that represents the world, you have to take the initiative to do that. And, again, like I mentioned, it's the onus is on every individual entrepreneur, and whoever you are to really start to seek out people who don't always look like you who don't always make you feel comfortable, who do bring up view that you're not used to, but for you to critically examine the impact of those ideas and thoughts and what that would mean for your business. And it's not something that you do. And my challenge for people and the reason why I'm acceptance of being part of this platform is to just put forth the voice that we we have to and if we just stay comfortable and and think about all and how emotional is going to make me feel or how you know how comfortable is going to make me feel then it's never going to happen but the era of lip service is over and honestly I believe the next time down to this level like society and civilization is gonna erupt. And that's just a warning really, because I think that the level in which we're at now people are frustrated. So things have to be done and done soon.
Dion 49:14
I think it's important to the education is really important. So and it's not just education in terms of what we're doing in the school setting. It's about that self education, that self inquiry, we're taking a really good look at ourselves questioning our unconscious bias, it's not okay to say I was born into a racist society, and therefore, this is how I am, you know, what do you need to learn to enable yourself to, to sort of challenge that inequality that's going on, and to really appreciate and share that diversity. So I think that's quite important in terms of the learning that we all need to do. And I think also, you know, keep sharing those opportunities that are out there so everybody can access and also not being afraid to take hold of those opportunities that come our way. You know, nobody wants to be given free money. Nobody wants to be given free opportunities, you know, Want to do it based on our merit? And so I think that's what we definitely are open to, and also open up opening up those networks. We want to be part of those networks. We have our own, which is absolutely fine. But also there's no reason why we shouldn't be party to the things that are going on that are available for for everyone. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And as a little sub question I had, I know, we said, you know, it's not your job to educate everyone. And it's not your job to be the leaders. But if you had any advice for young black females out there, you know, looking back at yourselves if you had any advice, maybe your younger selves, what would your advice be? I would say be yourself. love who you are. Find those opportunities, develop yourself personally, and also professionally Be brave and courageous enough to make those things happen. Find a mentor that's going to help move you forwards, maybe quicker than you could by yourself. Find people that are going to hold you accountable. Find a coach is going to help you get rid of those personal barriers. And just do it. Take that Action Day by day, step by step towards your vision and your goal and keep learning along the way.
Tina 51:14
Yeah, sounds great. I think similar, I would say to my younger self, I think I was a bit too hard on myself, I'd probably say what Dion was saying, just like, chill, chill, and just maybe just giving yourself a bit more time and just just resting in your journey that's just become a very important part of my life right now. I'm so thankful for the ability to flow and just kind of attract and be aligned to such great people and places and platforms. One interaction can lead to one thing and another and just if flows, there's a synergy there's a forced, you know what I'm about and, and you're able to freely reach out as a LAN and just create really meaningful interactions and networks. Via and I think it takes time. You can't You can't force that to happen. And you can't always make it happen with with people who don't want it to happen. But being able to kind of connect with people who are generally willing to learn and open up to offer their resources, like you're saying, Do mentorship or whatever that may entail in order to move you up is just the best way forward. Really?
Anna Flockett52:23
Definitely. Steph, did you have anything else you wanted to ask?
Steph 52:26
Or I am all ears and just taking on board everything that the lovely Dion and Tina are sharing, very grateful for your time as well today, ladies, I think ultimately it comes down to Enough is enough. It's the year 2020 tired of this bs now. And this is just making sure that you know what's really resonated with me listening to both of you as well as other conversations I've had. Just making sure that this is a movement, not a movement, you know that this is actually something that is going to incite stainable change that this is something that goes that runs more deeply with businesses today with the leaders of today, not the future it has to happen right here right now. Whilst, of course my wording earlier was not correct when we're referring to the George Floyd incident, definitely, the loss of anyone's life is definitely not a blessing. But it certainly is a catalyst to bring these conversations to the fore. So it really is taking that onus on all of us, right. Again, it's just not it's not just one segment of the population that have got the responsibility here to change things. We can only instigate real change all coming together and being allies in this because it's ridiculous. And as I said, Enough is enough now,
Anna Flockett53:44
yeah, I think Tina, when you were talking earlier, you said something along the lines of like is 2020 like how are people only just implementing these policies or thinking about it? And it's shocking like sometimes I feel ashamed. It is taken us this long for this many people to act on it and suddenly realise and want to do something. And it's, you know, you can say, Oh, it's the subconscious, like, like you said early on, it was just normal. But that was so wrong and it's taken us so long to realise that I just want to apologise. And yeah hopefully like Steph said, this is a movement and not a moment and I think it definitely will have it's definitely changed me and my thoughts and my views and I really do think it will have changed a lot of people it's not just a you know, let's post something on social media and then the next week post something else like it is a movement and I hope that that is the case as well. Well, ladies, thank you so much for your time today Tina Dion and Steph you've all been it's so amazing to talk to. I've enjoyed every second of this and I would talk to you for hours longer if we all could this is just the first part you know, we we wanted to start the conversation have an open conversation but It's more than that, like we've discussed today. So I think I'll leave it with you two Dion and Tina and telling us what we can do and what actions you would like to see from from other people.
Dion 55:10
So I think the first thing for me is, listen, there's lots of voices at the moment, lots of those voices are definitely worth listening to. So you can get a thorough understanding. And then part of that listening is also learning. So learning about what we've been talking about today, and going beyond just what you hear on the news, what can you do to find out more, and that also has an impact on individuals, on communities, on different cultures, but also society and also business. And then I think the final thing is to love because I think that is definitely possible for all of us. We have a love of self. And we can definitely share that in the community that we're part of, but also a real love for business as well. And that knows no boundaries. So I think those are the things I'd like to leave you with.
Tina 55:53
Yeah, you stole my last word, Dion. I don't know how.
Dion 55:57
I know honesty, love, love. Is the early way. You know, on top of my ID page I wrote love liberates just because during the right thing sometimes just leaves you feeling free. And I think behind all the things that we're all everyone or humanity and civilization is pursuing, it's just that ability to just feel at one and just free. And honestly, sometimes that does take the difficult things in order to be in that place where you can sleep at night. These issues are real, and not just something we see as very far from us and just India. And I believe that's the only way in which we can bring about change where it becomes something we bring home to ourselves and just address it in that way. Be the step forward right now, I believe.
Anna Flockett56:44
Definitely. Well, that was an amazing end to an amazing episode. Thank you everyone for listening. And we will be back soon with some more amazing and powerful women to listen to thank you.
Cereal entrepreneurAnna Flockett0:01
serial entrepreneur.
Hello and welcome to a special episode for serial entrepreneur podcast and from startups magazine. My name is Anna Flockett. And today I will be your host for a very special episode focusing on females and especially about the current movement, Black Lives Matter. I am so pleased to be joined today by my lovely co host, Steph Melodia, the founder of glue, the marketing agency for startups. Steph, it's lovely to have you on how are you today?
Steph 0:34
Thank you so much Anna I'm very well thank you and pleasure to be here co hosting this podcast episode with you today. As Anna said, my name is Stephanie melodia. I am the founder of bloom which is a startup marketing agency, which I founded two and a half years ago. We exist exclusively to support entrepreneurs with their exciting business journeys through practical marketing and beautiful creativity and the whole topic of feminism, Diversity, Inclusion is something that I'm very passionate about. So an honour to be co hosting this special episode with you today. We're actually joined today by Dion Jude who is a co founder and coach, and Tina charisma, who's a social entrepreneur and writer. Tina, would you like to kick off with your intro? Please?
Tina 1:21
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Startup magazine is such an awesome platform. And we've done projects together actually. So it's a pleasure to be part of the awesome work that you guys do, putting entrepreneurs at the forefront of change a bit about me. So my background is in international development, I am a social entrepreneur. So I primarily work on projects under my NGO called charisma campaign, which is an advocacy and cultural platform. We work to empower communities, both at the community minority level and internationally as well. So we work on a lot of women programme from events to actually social activism and writing on social justice issues which I do most of within that area. In terms of my work. I have been actually working within the sector for over 10 years now as even a teenager where I started with mindful movement with activism, which I was very passionate about. So that's worked a long way over the years.
Steph 2:26
Amazing. And as this is the serial entrepreneurs podcast, and most important question, what's your favourite cereal?
Tina 2:32
My favourite cereal is cocoa pops, but I am ashamed to say this right now because now I have to eat Weetabix. I'm trying to be healthy. Those cheeky things of like eating cocoa pods is out the windows. I kind of been bad for that. Now I'll say Coco Pops/Wheatabix
Steph 2:51
Just take the cocoa puffs. It's all good. I'm going to actually just take this opportunity quickly, just as you say coco pops to plug another female founded business, which is called blondies kitchen which actually sells bottles of not chocolate milk but Coco pop milk. It is amazing. You need to check that out for sure. Thank you so much Tina. Dion, would you like to give us your intro please?
Dion 3:16
Hey everybody hope you are well. So my name is Dion Jude. I am a serial entrepreneur. It feels like I've been in business for a very long time. I however, returned to business only about two years ago. My first business was a business called nappy cakes UK, which was a unique baby gift, which was over about 15 years ago now. And I eventually got that business into Selfridges. I don't want into the world of education, and I've been in education for about 10 years. I'm currently working as a deputy head teacher in a school, but then I left last year to return to business. I believe that I am a true entrepreneur at heart. I wanted to get back into developing my ideas. So one of the ideas that I've developed is called Overstand You it is a self coaching plan. form which assists individuals to know and grow themselves using radical self inquiry so using questions that they can use to increase their self awareness, and over the carpet period, I've just started a business with my daughter. She is 17 years old. I saw that she was lounging around after finishing her, B tech studies and A level waiting to go on to university and I thought, why don't we do something together? So we've just launched something called one link up and just really allowing her to learn the skills which hopefully will be useful for her in the future.
Anna Flockett4:32
Incredible. Wow.
Tina 4:33
That is amazing. And most importantly, Dion, what's your favourite cereal? As a serial entrepreneur? I'm expecting a good answer.
Dion 4:41
Well, I'm actually gluten intolerance so I don't eat cereal. However, If I had to choose Tina, I definitely would have said coco pops. And I think it's that it's that two in one you get the rest Chris Krispies but also you get the chocolate the same time.
Steph 4:56
Cocoa Pops is a winner and I don't know if anyone's had the chance to ask you that. Question. What's your favourite?
Anna Flockett5:01
Thank you? No, they haven't. I think mine's a really weird one but I'm a standard Cheerios girl like,
Tina 5:06
oh, cheerios is good. I like Cheerios.
Dion 5:09
I'm not mad cherrios is good stuff. I'm not mad at all.
Anna Flockett5:14
And Steph, we cannot ask you What is your favourite cereal?
Steph 5:18
Okay, well obviously I can't say Cocoa Puffs now. So I'm going to go Frosties because you still got the good stuff that the cocoa box gives you because you still got the sweet milk and everything afterwards.
Anna Flockett5:29
Amazing. Well, thank you all for your amazing intros, I can tell I'm surrounded by some incredible women today. So I'm really excited about our chat. It was nice to get off, you know, to a light hearted start and then bit more about each other. And I'm excited to learn more about you guys and your experiences. So obviously with you know, the recent events that have gone on, it's brought the Black Lives Matter movement about which is a great thing, you know, bringing it to light and like making a lot more people realise and we wanted to take It's time to do this podcast to kind of educate other people I know I myself needed some more education, and I want to learn and I want to be part of the movement and help so we thought why not better to have this open conversation and speak to two people that can obviously talk about their personal experiences and what they've been through and their opinions. It doesn't have to be what you've been through it can just be what you think as well, it's, it's good to get like a mixture of opinions. So I thought the first question may be an obvious one, but obviously with the whole recent events, and then the Black Lives Matter movement coming about how has this made you Dion and Tina feel as black women?
Dion 6:39
I think to myself, I think it's pretty sad I think when I saw it, and definitely didn't want to watch it again. So really, really sad but also a sense of Here we go again, as a black woman, these incidents seem to be happening on a regular basis and not even to say that I've been become desensitised. I don't even feel desensitised. Because every time that it happens, It's just to see what is the last one. And but it's just really sad that it is still happening. And you know that people are now out on the street, but actually out on the street together really supporting the cause. But also it goes beyond the course. So I think that it's great. We've got the Black Lives Matter movement, but also let's have a real in depth look at inequality, inclusion and diversity. So I hope that it doesn't stop when the marches stop. Definitely.
Anna Flockett7:27
I couldn't agree more. Tina, how is it made? You feel?
Tina 7:29
Yeah, I think similar to Deion Actually, these are issues that have been ongoing for generations. So I think my first initial reaction was just like there is this continuation of these issues that for such a long time have remained on the surface because I do think it's the fact that Oh, wow, here again, like we have another issue that's happened over another few years. But these are actual subtle issues that occur in people's lives. And it just Take sometimes extreme cases for people to kind of realise how extreme these issues are. But nevertheless, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen every day. So I think it was just like the reaction of just being able to kind of portray to the world like, this is what happens. And I've interacted with a lot of people, both within the community, the black community and outside. And it has been interesting to host these conversations and to come together. I've actually been personally part of some of the protests over in London, and it's just the feeling the atmosphere, and just the whole vibe of the movement is just so powerful. So I think for me, it's just been like a awakening moment that I felt that it's about time that people saw this for what it is, and stood up to kind of really defend and to stand by the black community in order to kind of bring about some of these changes,
Dion 8:59
you know, oh, So when it happened, and there was no immediate response, I think for me, it was like, that was maybe expected because that's just what happens, you know, black people get killed. And then this is the usual response that actually we have to fight for there to be to be justice. And so, you know, is it the case again, that nobody's really listening, nobody's really interested. It's just another black life that's gone. And therefore So be it, so when, you know, it's really interesting that now people are willing to have these conversations. And you know, they're willing to have a really good look at themselves and to really learn and black, white, Asian, you know, across the board, not just not just white people, or Caucasian people, you know, everybody's now interested in having the debate and i think that's that's really key.
Tina 9:42
It's a blessing in disguise if I can use that obviously treading carefully because no one wish for that to happen. And you're quite right, Dion. You know, that video that went viral was absolutely sickening. And as we're taught, we've only just started the conversation and I feel physically sick. I can feel I can feel And my God, I can feel it in my chest. But you're right at the very least, I don't want to say necessarily the positives that have come from it, but it has provided a catalyst for these conversations. And to your point, as long as it is, it's a catalyst for sustainable change that it's not just Are you post your black picture on Instagram? And that's that it's what are we going to do? We need to take this much more seriously,
Dion 10:23
I will have to kind of step in and just kind of steer that because from that perspective, I know a lot of people will find problematic it's not a blessing in disguise, in a sense of the fact it doesn't take a black life to kind of be the last for the world to kind of react in that sense. That's a life, you know. And I think platforms like this everyone is like chiming in from different perspectives. So it's worth to kind of correct this while we're at it. Yeah, for sure. But the point that I'm trying to make as well is just the fact that people go to extremities of these things. And it's part of their lives. And I think sometimes the world has just taken to it as like, well, there's a blacklight. But that's, that's someone's son and I wrote a piece for vogue the other day, and it was like, What does someone sign that someone's proper, you know that someone's family member, and they have lost their life to a system that is oppressive, and the pain that they're going to be feeling like no one in the world has any place to kind of compromise that at all. Because it's right, in a sense of the momentum that has been backed over the last few months after the whole death has been enormous. But it shouldn't be happening. That is not the platform for people to be dying, and there's not a victory death, you know, I mean, so my point is the fact that we have to do better in terms of what I do agree with what you're saying, and that sense of the sustainability aspect of it. This can't just be an event and it's failed if it continues to be, hey, another black person, like we've had it here in the UK. And that's why people have actually taken up to the streets because we have our own history of racial discrimination in our systems, you know, with with our young black men, you know, without young black boys and women. So this, for me is a time for people actually to wake up to the realities, rather than seeing the kind of analyzation of that and the media and just thinking, oh, wow, yeah, like, no, it's not just about the glamorization. It's about that activeness of people to actually look deep within themselves and think how can I change this because everyone is part of the problem at the same time. No, that's totally Of course seen. And I think that also to connect the dots a little bit there, Dion what you were sharing before about how your radical self coaching that you've developed and actually, those what was it it How is it that you phrase that with the power of the self inquiry? I think there's that's extremely pertinent nowadays. These times, right? Whether it's white people in particular for ally ship and looking at it to your point to actually to use this as an opportunity to finally look within yourselves be more active about how you course correct all of your daily actions, your unconscious bias, all these things that you do without having so much of that awareness usually.
Yeah. And you know, going back to just briefly what you were saying before Tina, there's something about this particular event because it's happened before and it's happened since so there was something quite unique about this, that's allowed that learning to happen. But I think in terms of that self inquiry, it goes on so many different levels. So it goes on on a personal level, and that's black why Asian alike and but also on an institutional level as well. Now, one thing that you never say is that you fully understand, you know, with somebody when you've not been through that experience yourself, you can empathise, but understand it is a whole different, different category. So, you know, just as long as we do continue that self inquiry and that we just don't have another inquiry and from the government, hundreds of thousands As a pound spent, you know, just to come up with a few recommendations that aren't fully implemented. But those questions are definitely crucial. 100%.
Anna Flockett14:07
And I guess that leads on to my next kind of big question and kind of area, but you both kind of already touched on it. But where do you think that main root of the problem lies? Where is it stemmed from? And how is it got so out of control?
Dion 14:22
Well, race like a lot of the other social evils that we face, it's a historical thing. It's a psychological thing. And I, when I'm often asked questions like this, I just pretty much want to take it back to the basics, as in this is our histories, and these are histories playing out in our present times and our current realities. And the problem is that we haven't questioned a lot of the things enough or we have but people are also somehow like comfortable in their privileges, that they refuse to kind of shake the tables to an extent where we can have some actual real meaningful change. Because right now in 2020, if as an organisation you're now going around sending emails and doing policies around diversity and inclusion in 2020, like, hey, like, really, if you're now in that position when you're doing that, like, I'm actually questioning your role right now. And on the morning and a few weeks, between the process he was getting emails from clients that we've worked with and people passing out things that can you do this. I was exhausted that week, because I've been like opportunities are there the spaces are that but people do not want to do what is right. So in terms of the roots, I, I strongly believe that is a part of a civilization that we really need to challenge and make sure that our systems are aligned with our processes of challenging the norms in which we have accepted for so long.
Anna Flockett16:00
I agree. And before I come on to you on something that just came into my head as, as you were saying that there is something that's come out of the recent events a lot is people saying it's no good. Now to not be racist, you need to be anti racist. And I've never thought about it like that before. But not saying just because you're not being racist actively doesn't mean that you're also helping, like, that's what they say, Now, isn't it like being silent, is sometimes just as harmful. And I I'm not because I'm a bad person. I just hadn't thought about it. And that is my fault. But I think this now it's like making people realise a bit more. And it's, it's like a wake up call that we should have had a long time ago. So like, it's our own fault. But like, if we can talk about something that's like, good that has come out of it. It has made people realise and I'm sorry, it's taken that long, but I'm glad now that I have realised that sorry, Dion, what what were you going to say about you know, where the three tips to problem lies.
Dion 17:01
Yeah, I think you know, these conversations have been happening for a very long time. And they happen in different ways in different places. I think the differences now people are willing to listen more than before. You know, I grew up in, in Preston in Lancashire, I live in London now, but I'm a Lancashire lass. And I remember, you know, growing up, and not giving away my age, but growing up in the 70s and 80s, you know, being a primary school, you know, one of the things was, you know, I was the only black person in my, in my year at school, and faced quite a lot of racism and never really understood, you know, as a child, you know, where is this? Where is this coming from, but also remembering the certain conversations that we don't have around white people. These are conversations that we have within within our group, because they won't understand them. When you try to have these conversations. You know, about then people would say, Oh, you've got a chip on your shoulder, and eventually just shut you up. And you wouldn't you wouldn't say anything. And but going back to the root, you know, I believe that the root is stems back to the development of white supremacy. You know, the idea of That whiteness is better than anything else, you know, why do we have the concept of black and white in the first place, and then you've got Asian, Chinese, all of these different people can be labelled and identified according to their country of origin. I want to call the black woman because of the event of transatlantic slavery, where Africans were taken from Africa taken to the Caribbean and the Americas. And as a result of that, we've now got this identity. And there's lots of debate out there, whether we should be called black or whether we should be called African. But Africa in itself is a massive continent. With a wealth of different countries a wealth of you know, even one country can have a wealth of different languages. But we have this idea and this concept of blackness, but also, it's a game gainst whiteness, so I think if we really want to have a true conversation, we need to look at the root which is white supremacy, which was fueled by, um, scientific racism in the 1800s. You know, this whole idea that there are five different races, you know, and one is better than the other, you know, went on for hundreds of years and definitely supported the idea that we have some groups are better than others. And therefore we can pitch one against another and look at them differently if you're looking at the root cause that's where I believe it has come from, you know, can we ever get to the root of understanding white supremacy? Maybe not. But let's start having a conversation.
I agree with that, to and to even add to that as well, in terms of conversation, and I've said this for years. In fact, I'm even more irritated by this some of these movement and the fact that I feel like a lot of the things I've been saying been saying for years, you know, I have made a video at the back of somewhere on my social media where I was like out doing a protest, I think that was like 2017 or something like that, like, on fascism within our local area. And these conversations are super uncomfortable. In fact, I've been saying things like this again, for years where I'm like, the conversation that we need to have this so uncomfortable, but we need to have it and the fact that it's uncomfortable is the reason why we need to have it because people have gone through things over the course of history, where they were, you know, putting in shameful positions where they were stripped of everything where they will looted, you know, and that was, that was literally so, so bad and so uncomfortable that we have generations after is still paying the cost of that. That's brutal. So there is no conversation that we can have that does not eroose some kind of conflict in uncovered because it is a history of that. And it boils down to us making some of these drastic changes that will represent just the shifts that we have had to make over the course of history
Steph 20:44
To chip in how I've been aware of how physically sick this conversation in itself is making me feel and then quickly realised if just a conversation is making you feel uncomfortable, then imagine actually living your life like this every single day. So, again, there isn't an understanding, I will never be able to understand. But there is certainly that empathy. At least that's what's going on in my stomach at the moment. And just to also touch on a comment that you made as well there before Dion. So my my partner's conversation today is because I hosted a series of Instagram Live interviews over the past few weeks and use that as an opportunity to bring on board guests who were people of colour Africa and black. Again, it's like, not exactly sure if I'm saying the right thing or what terminology to use. And there was a few things that came out of those conversations that I'd like to use this as an opportunity to amplify their voices. But what I mentioned just quickly now is Deon, you were saying before about this concept of blackness and how Africa in itself you Africa is a continent, that's not a country, there's many countries within that one single continent. And, you know, just within these few interviews that I hosted, I had guests who had ancestry from Ghana, Jamaica, Kenya. Some of them were born in the UK. One was born in Germany in Europe. And you think how is this single brush that everyone has been tarnished with because they happen to have been born with more melanin in their skin, like that's literally what it comes down to. So it is here from an anthropological perspective, if you like, it can be extremely, I think any social injustice. If you are able to extrapolate yourself from the problem for a second, it can be quite fascinating to actually look at and just like when you break it down, it's just beyond ridiculous. There's no there's no words for it is crazy. The other thing I just want to mention just before I do forget is how in one of these interviews that somebody else opened my eyes to so I had guests included Mandy nyarko, Baba tingy Fairbank, the jazz brought in Nancy Obama have not forgetting anybody, and they all shared such amazing like pearls of wisdom and really open my eyes during these conversations. I remember one of them saying this isn't a black person's problem is that this is the other thing, right? Like why I think you were saying as well before about how the conversation previously was restricted to within your own circles as if it's your problem as if you were the ones who have to find the solution. Whereas actually, white supremacy is the issue here. Actually, this is a wider social issue actually is something that white people need to actively consider and take into account. And we shouldn't be relying on p we shouldn't be relying on It's fantastic to be using these platforms to give you guys a voice and amplify what it is that you're saying, you know, it's bad enough if you like that you happen to have been born with some more melanin in your skin, you know, and the racism and everything else that you've encountered by default of that fact, without the added pressure of you having the unrequested obligation to have to be the educators for the rest of society as well.
Dion 23:52
Yeah. And also education all around you know, just because somebody is Black or African does not mean you know, I was learning African history from A very young age at secondary school. There's many people that I know that happen to just come to it as adults. And there are people who are far beyond who knows so much more about the history than I. And, you know, even some of the circles that I'm in, you know, I'm still amazed by all the things that they're talking about, because I've had no clue about this. You know, I was in a debate the other day where somebody was saying, Oh, you shouldn't be call ourselves African, because African actually was a European name imposed on the continent. I'd never heard of that before. So I'm also you know, it's not an awesome situation. It's an education is an education and education all around and really uncomfortable conversations, but it's the willingness to come to the table, to listen, to be open and to really engage in something and to be prepared to be part of the change.
Tina 24:42
I agree with that Dion I am definitely off the point of view where I feel like the conversations do need to be had just because the importance of empathy is so important in this just because everyone is learning at the same time. The essence of everyone is on a journey. And I think having the uproach to want to know is such a great place to be, because that's the place which will unlock the future. And I know there's going to be a lot of people who disagree with this. And a lot of my view is just very much trying to represent the diverse views out there. So this particular view is my own. It's my own in a sense of, I feel like there really needs to be that element of compassion and empathy of creating communities and having platforms like this, where people can can feel education, because I once said, within a community, if you haven't crossed paths with someone, sometimes you just have no idea what that community is going to do unless you actually communicate and, you know, learn a lot about each other. And that's sometimes that's what the divide requires for you to just cross over to another side to see what the reality of others are. And the more you do that, the more You learn. And I say this because even in a time of pride and transgender issues, I've had to be in a position where I'm learning where I've had to be in a position where, and broadening my awareness and skills and just understanding the depth of it. And there's just so many complexities within our society, not an excuse for any injustice, again, but I'm just trying to highlight the importance of us to just put ourself in that point of education and, and nobility, to be able to kind of take away the layers of what we feel we know and be accepting of the knowledge that comes away. And that's the only future forward in my opinion.
Anna Flockett26:39
100% as you were just saying, we're all human. At the end of the day, everyone is human and that what you just said Tina, about, you know, labelling and inclusion in every sense. Obviously, we're here today to talk about, you know, racism and the colour of your skin and stuff, but like, there's so many aspects in life that people are penalised for that they can't Help been been a woman, you know, we're still on that battle as well. And that, like you mentioned is Pride Month, but like there's so many things that humans are just nasty about. And it is baffling because at the end of the day, no matter what colour your skin is, what gender you are, what what you identify as what your sexuality is, we're all human, like, everyone is the same. And it's taken me maybe until I'm 26 years old to realise, like, we're so horrible as a human.
Dion 27:30
We have so much to add to that one thing that over the last few weeks I've just really had an opportunity to zone into is the fact that civilization is such a still new developed species, you know, human times, were really not that old, in a sense, you know, with the constant changes in the capacity in our world and as well, it does, it will take time it will take a lot of shifts and great him and again, none of what I'm saying As an excuse for anything, okay? Because the fact is that the opportunities have been there for all this time. And what a lot of people are frustrated about is the fact that, hey, this is not the first time this is not the second time, you know, and that is the problem that is a point of anger. But I do have a lot of people, it's just like, oh, how long, but then at the same time, it's really about time for people to wake up with an awareness of just the realities of our society and just the challenges of people that people experience beyond your own personal lives and how you can connect with that in order to change and bring about certain kind of cohesion in the relationships we have. And I think it's even great to start off having this conversation and I one of the reasons why I thought this was great. It's just that, you know, creating platforms to have conversations again, like this is awesome. It's a great start, you know, someone else is gonna hit It is who has never met with me, or has never met you on, you know, maybe having access to conversations like this that are more that are open. And that's why I've had to correct some things in terms of the way it's been presented, because ideas go on to amplify people's lives. And the same ideas of us today, you know, making our judgments about race and the ideas of sex. And these are all the things that we need to bring on the review to be able to kind of analyse and correct
Anna Flockett29:35
Yeah, I couldn't agree.
Dion 29:36
Can I just mention one thing? I think one thing that we need to definitely include in this is the concept of power, and you can't divorce that idea from this whole situation. So even though that we've talked about, you know, white and black, even within white, you've got the class system, you know, you've got you've got a hierarchy, you know, there was some groups who are severely disadvantaged, you know, the working customers, so logical perspective, the working class, you know, some would call the underclass who who seriously suffer as a result of their socio economic status. And I think that having a look at power. So the transatlantic slavery system, really developed as a result of capitalism and wanting to keep that whole system going, you know, we're now moving into a postmodern society where things are changing, you know, young people who say, we're no longer going to believe in these grand narratives and all of these amazing what seem to be amazing ideas, we're actually going to challenge your concepts, and your ideas about race, about gender, about sexuality, and age and all of those other things. So it's a it's a really, it's an exciting time.
Anna Flockett30:36
Definitely. And I think that kind of leads us on nicely to my next kind of section. So be it. Tina, I know you do a lot of work, especially in the campaigning for for women, Dion I'm sure you do as well. But my main question is, what kind of challenges do you think you both have faced being a black woman in this industry?
Tina 30:57
So um, I think one of the things Do from what we've already spoken about is this concept of birds of a feather flock together. I think you've heard that say before where, you know people like attracts like. And so sometimes when you walk into a room and you see somebody looks looks like you, if you're a woman, and you're in a room full of men, and there's another woman, then you might just gravitate towards her. And it could just be that sometimes it happens unconsciously. And so there are times, you know, I've even been a keynote speaking event where I've spoken in front of a group of white people, there's no black people don't and it's just me. And even at networking events in regards to business, sometimes you would go and you might be the only black person you might see somebody else. And you know, you kind of have this nod, you acknowledge each other. And so there are so many opportunities in places that I've been in as a startup founder, where I don't see people that look like me. And some people say, well, is that important, this is just business, but I think that it is, especially in regards to your network who is in your network is really important. And there are some networks that just not help Just have not been open to people of colour, which are now becoming more open. So as Tina said, lots of emails are coming through to startup competition that came through yesterday. And this is something that my daughter can enter. And what they're saying is we've been running this competition for five years, and we've never had a person of colour, enter the competition. So there's lots of opportunities. But sometimes you don't know about these opportunities, because you're not part of that network. And these things are only really shared within that network. And sometimes you go but you're you sort of stand out because you're not really part of what's normally going on. So I think not being part of that situation can cause us not to be aware of opportunities, and also think in terms of acceptance as well. I've been along to a lot of networking events, seminars, presentations, exhibitions that are all black for people of colour for people of African descent, and you feel a lot more comfortable because you see people like you can have open conversations You know, people are sharing ideas, people are sharing opportunities, you know, people are being themselves, you know, there's no need to try and look and fit and feel and present in a certain way because actually, you just can just get on and you just, you know, you just have those conversations. And so I think the final thing for me is funding. As I said, the last light just three days the amount of funding that I've had come my way as a startup founder just because of the colour of my skin is amazing. Where was all of that before it's definitely something that we can take advantage of. But it just begs the question is Why?
I mean, everything the developer said I think it goes so much deeper meaning that the whole section ality of it is just very um, it for a lot of people can mean different things. You know, whether you're going or you want to talk about your personal experiences in life or whether you want to talk up talk about entrepreneurship, and honestly, I could go over so much right now, but backtrack. white privilege is real. I believe that white privilege is real. And it's one of the reasons why Dion as you're saying a lot of the things that you're now experiencing, it's not because people actually have the power to do that. And for so long have sat on there. You have a power and you're in a position and my question that I've been asking a lot of white people over the last few weeks, what is in your hands, you want to help stop racism, what is in your hands, because actually, it takes just one individual to reach out to mentor to support to fund you know, to elevate people, and that can go a long way, within my personal work in terms of charisma campaign, even though I'm a woman of colour black woman. I've never created that space, particularly just for black people. That does not go against any of the communities that specifically wrote for black women because it's so needed. aces are so sacred and have so much feeling in them. To me, my purpose has always been to bring about the discussions and create a diverse community that people can interact with people that they've never had an opportunity to meet before. So that's a very core part of my principle when it comes to some cultural immersion and confusion and just horror admiration of all those things. However, we have women organisations that continue to exist, where you have panels and you have things and it's just all white women. How do we feel comfortable with this in 2020? And I'm not talking about last year like Like, right now today, we still have things that are online and going on and people can happily put things out where it's just not represented. And I'm so sure that does, like people. Don't think at all There is no black person who's, who's eloquent enough to speak really like People out there and you have to seek for them, you have to search for them and empower them. I told someone the other day, I need you to empower me in order for me to come and empower you. Because for so long, I'm going to use my personal example, I have felt so drawn out and exhausted by just really being present for communities that have never, ever had the decency to even pull back out into me. And that's insulting. In this day and age, it's just not happening any longer. So I do really want to put the call to action for organisations to really think about how they can empower the black community and the resources that they can pay back into the black community in order to work collaboratively to push forward towards a future that is more representative that is more stronger. You know, it's about strength. It's about sustainability. It's about an equality that is of essence you know, and it's not just about talking and lip service and, and feeling 'oh poor black people' within one day, you know, that's, that's, that doesn't solve it and that's discriminatory in itself, you know, but it's actually really being able to understand the power of diverse economies and being able to print all that together to make your work even stronger. That's an advantage. You know, think about the ideas that people can bring together if they think about being able to expand in working with others and, and can I say, Can I just say I'm not plugging stuff that I can but can I just say that startup magazine has been a great example of that, honestly, from the very first day, I got in touch with one of your marketing This is not an ad, by the way, they didn't pay me to be like, you know, just just a support and, and that's the energy that that I'm been kind of tapped into just people who are just very open to listening and to support even in the little way that they can. And that should be our approach, you know, because every community has a minimum amount of resources, sometimes it can't be big, you know, but you do have something at the end of the day that you can pull back out to support other teams,
Dion 38:13
that's quite important as well is, you know, there are some great opportunities that are out there. And also, I think for for black people, you know, having that confidence to move forward. You know, I have definitely excelled in business so many ways, because I see the opportunity, I go for the opportunity. I have not non no personal barriers, the external barriers that exist, I'm gonna find a way through, you know, I've gotten a mentoring programme, you know, I go to networking events, I'm teaching myself about business, but also it's about having that confidence to speak to people and have that conversation. You know, I found allies in a room where there's only me as a black person who were Northerners, and that's a common thing that we've we've got in common. And so it's about having that confidence getting out there having those conversations and sometimes you know, not assuming that it's not gonna work out because you're black, because also I've had those comments. Sometimes we have colleagues who feel a lack of confidence, or they've had negative experiences and assume that it's going to play out in the same way.
Anna Flockett39:07
Yeah, I have a question. But I don't know if it's too uncomfortable. So you don't have to answer
Unknown Speaker39:13
it. This is about how
Anna Flockett39:15
I know when I feel
Speaker 4 39:18
time in raw. I know,
Anna Flockett39:20
I know how I know. And I'm going in hard. And I don't know if it's not appropriate. But do you think that obviously, sometimes you've had more obstacles because you're a person of colour, but also because you're a woman? So there's two things that people are holding against you? And do you think sometimes it, then you've got to like jump over more barriers? Like has it been even harder for you? And do you have you ever felt that last people ever made you feel like that?
Tina 39:49
I think for me, so I'm just going to jump in there because otherwise I'll forget. I'm working on a project at the moment that requires a lot of self reflection and it's just in the light of all These issues that I've really had an opportunity to self reflect to that level where I think sometimes people just don't know. You know, I started off as a young girl super active and just have worked myself into spaces. But I think some people just don't know how much you carry on is the weight of that that sometimes can be so sad because I grew up in Korea don't like hard working, just going for things for myself. And I had to have people who actually saw my persistence to actually be like, wow, like your talent, your tenacity and just being able to support and people just don't realise the psychological, emotional barriers. It doesn't have to just be your colour is the fact that you are black and sometimes have lived inside to errors or experience certain things in itself is a trauma that a lot of people carry in has its level because not everyone has gone through this. I can only speak for myself. There are things that I've been in cases where it's hurt me, it could have just been to someone saying something, but it's hurt me on a deeper level beyond the surface of it. A pretty great example that I've never actually shared my first ever role that I had. I had I had a manager who was white and she was female. And that's a problem I had. Because I think sometimes as well, like even within the feminist sphere, where you have women who are like, yeah, we're empowering women, but like, how much of other colour women do you kind of encompass within your space? I did correct a woman that I work with and she got emotional. Why? Because I was right. And I'm very I'm never harsh on my approach. Like I said, I'm a firm believer in compassionate empathy. After correcting her, she got emotional about it. And guess who got in trouble? Yeah, that was me. I got in trouble. For me. That was a biggest opportunity. I've had Had to that date I left home to live in an area and have my first ever job that one action took me back years. I had to spend years recovering, she would have never ever known how much that opportunity meant for me at that time. Her response could have been totally different, right. But that's my point in saying that sharing a very uncomfortable story in a platform like this and the fact that sometimes you don't know how much your reaction can impact people. And we do have to be sympathetic and empathetic and compassionate about the people that we deal with because a therapist one says, you know, sometimes our wounds go so much deeper than just the things that we see on the surface that we experienced as members of our tribe or ethnicity or by colour. We have so much things attached to that in itself. So we have to be very Kinda
Dion 43:00
thanks for sharing Tina. I think for me, I think it's built a resilience within me. And I feel like I've been fighting Actually, I've stopped fighting. But I felt for a very long time, I felt that I was constantly fighting and battling, and that I needed a challenge to be able to succeed. And what I realised is that I don't actually need that. But what the whole experience has taught me is to become really resilient. I don't feel that I probably am disadvantage because I'm a woman and black, but I don't acknowledge it, or I don't let that hold me back. You know, I suppose, you know, if somebody is black, disabled, and a woman you know, which which one sort of comes first, it's kind of difficult to safely look at it in that way. So for me, I think the whole experience has taught me to be really resilient. I no longer fights Tina. And but I relish the opportunity. I've learned from being that young girl living in a town where nobody looks like me to come into London where lots of people look like me, but the same issue still persists to now. Reaching out into a sphere of worldwide opportunities, and just seeing what I can make of it.
Anna Flockett44:06
Definitely. And it's really interesting to hear you say, obviously you were fighting and now you've, you've stopped. It's quite powerful to hear as we were talking about power earlier. So yeah, thank you.
Dion 44:17
What was happening is that I almost needed a challenge in my life to give me momentum to me was about to feel motivated, I need to challenge whereas now I don't, I don't have those personal goals. If I want to go for something, I want to go for it simply because,
Anna Flockett44:31
yeah, and Do you feel better now? Do you feel like relief?
Dion 44:35
I do. I do. Because I can create all day I can build all day, and I can support and coach without the need to do it because I'm scared of something or worrying about something. I do it now because I'm empowered and I hope to continue empowering others
Steph 44:50
it comes down to energy. At the end of the day we have our energy is is not an infinite resource, as I found out firsthand in building my own company For the first time, and as you say, it's just part of that not fighting anymore is self preservation, right? Because it's actually this is energy that can be directed towards something more productive. Whatever your definition is about your own business. It's obviously a fight worth fighting but at what cost right to yourself to your own health to your own personal situation. And that's where the whole conversation of ally ship as well has been brought to the forefront in this wider Black Lives Matter conversation because it's not this is not an issue that only one segment of the population with a responsibility lies This is all of us. We can't just leave you fighting the good fight.
Tina 45:42
I love what you said just said right now Dion and i think i'm i'm definitely a space where I found so much peace and that comes with just what I do in the sense of like, what I do and where I'm at right now is so insane. Like, I am just so thankful to God to be In a space where I can just freely manifest and be who I've called to be, it is a privilege in the sense of being able to fully be in an environment where you fully bring yourself. But not everyone has that privilege. And when we talk about fighting, I think there are some people who in a sense, have to continue to fight in the sense of like, they haven't actually reached a point yet where they can walk up, show up and come as they are. And that's the problem we have, in the sense that until everyone reaches that point, then it's like, we still have barriers to break the process. It's going to take time it's going to take education is going to take policy, it's going to take structural adjustments for us to reach that stage. So but as someone who again, has come from a corporate background, and still within that sector, it's just it can be a challenge and sometimes in terms of really being able to adjust when the structures are super tight enough that You can't see me on do those times. Yeah.
Anna Flockett47:03
Sometimes it's about things you were taught wrong, you have to unlearn those things because we were just probably too ignorant and didn't realise how wrong they were. And it's conversations like these. And everything that's going on at the moment is opening, more and more people's eyes to that, to hopefully make a change. Ladies we've spoke about so much. And we have covered my final kind of section. But I do want to ask you, in case there's anything you want to add on, but my final question to you would be, what changes do we need to make in our industry to make it more inclusive?
Tina 47:40
Yeah, I think like we've already established there are systematic changes and needs to be had, as well as being able to have workforces that exemplify the communities that we live in and there there is no way it's two ways about that. If you want to actually be in an environment that represents the world, you have to take the initiative to do that. And, again, like I mentioned, it's the onus is on every individual entrepreneur, and whoever you are to really start to seek out people who don't always look like you who don't always make you feel comfortable, who do bring up view that you're not used to, but for you to critically examine the impact of those ideas and thoughts and what that would mean for your business. And it's not something that you do. And my challenge for people and the reason why I'm acceptance of being part of this platform is to just put forth the voice that we we have to and if we just stay comfortable and and think about all and how emotional is going to make me feel or how you know how comfortable is going to make me feel then it's never going to happen but the era of lip service is over and honestly I believe the next time down to this level like society and civilization is gonna erupt. And that's just a warning really, because I think that the level in which we're at now people are frustrated. So things have to be done and done soon.
Dion 49:14
I think it's important to the education is really important. So and it's not just education in terms of what we're doing in the school setting. It's about that self education, that self inquiry, we're taking a really good look at ourselves questioning our unconscious bias, it's not okay to say I was born into a racist society, and therefore, this is how I am, you know, what do you need to learn to enable yourself to, to sort of challenge that inequality that's going on, and to really appreciate and share that diversity. So I think that's quite important in terms of the learning that we all need to do. And I think also, you know, keep sharing those opportunities that are out there so everybody can access and also not being afraid to take hold of those opportunities that come our way. You know, nobody wants to be given free money. Nobody wants to be given free opportunities, you know, Want to do it based on our merit? And so I think that's what we definitely are open to, and also open up opening up those networks. We want to be part of those networks. We have our own, which is absolutely fine. But also there's no reason why we shouldn't be party to the things that are going on that are available for for everyone. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And as a little sub question I had, I know, we said, you know, it's not your job to educate everyone. And it's not your job to be the leaders. But if you had any advice for young black females out there, you know, looking back at yourselves if you had any advice, maybe your younger selves, what would your advice be? I would say be yourself. love who you are. Find those opportunities, develop yourself personally, and also professionally Be brave and courageous enough to make those things happen. Find a mentor that's going to help move you forwards, maybe quicker than you could by yourself. Find people that are going to hold you accountable. Find a coach is going to help you get rid of those personal barriers. And just do it. Take that Action Day by day, step by step towards your vision and your goal and keep learning along the way.
Tina 51:14
Yeah, sounds great. I think similar, I would say to my younger self, I think I was a bit too hard on myself, I'd probably say what Dion was saying, just like, chill, chill, and just maybe just giving yourself a bit more time and just just resting in your journey that's just become a very important part of my life right now. I'm so thankful for the ability to flow and just kind of attract and be aligned to such great people and places and platforms. One interaction can lead to one thing and another and just if flows, there's a synergy there's a forced, you know what I'm about and, and you're able to freely reach out as a LAN and just create really meaningful interactions and networks. Via and I think it takes time. You can't You can't force that to happen. And you can't always make it happen with with people who don't want it to happen. But being able to kind of connect with people who are generally willing to learn and open up to offer their resources, like you're saying, Do mentorship or whatever that may entail in order to move you up is just the best way forward. Really?
Anna Flockett52:23
Definitely. Steph, did you have anything else you wanted to ask?
Steph 52:26
Or I am all ears and just taking on board everything that the lovely Dion and Tina are sharing, very grateful for your time as well today, ladies, I think ultimately it comes down to Enough is enough. It's the year 2020 tired of this bs now. And this is just making sure that you know what's really resonated with me listening to both of you as well as other conversations I've had. Just making sure that this is a movement, not a movement, you know that this is actually something that is going to incite stainable change that this is something that goes that runs more deeply with businesses today with the leaders of today, not the future it has to happen right here right now. Whilst, of course my wording earlier was not correct when we're referring to the George Floyd incident, definitely, the loss of anyone's life is definitely not a blessing. But it certainly is a catalyst to bring these conversations to the fore. So it really is taking that onus on all of us, right. Again, it's just not it's not just one segment of the population that have got the responsibility here to change things. We can only instigate real change all coming together and being allies in this because it's ridiculous. And as I said, Enough is enough now,
Anna Flockett53:44
yeah, I think Tina, when you were talking earlier, you said something along the lines of like is 2020 like how are people only just implementing these policies or thinking about it? And it's shocking like sometimes I feel ashamed. It is taken us this long for this many people to act on it and suddenly realise and want to do something. And it's, you know, you can say, Oh, it's the subconscious, like, like you said early on, it was just normal. But that was so wrong and it's taken us so long to realise that I just want to apologise. And yeah hopefully like Steph said, this is a movement and not a moment and I think it definitely will have it's definitely changed me and my thoughts and my views and I really do think it will have changed a lot of people it's not just a you know, let's post something on social media and then the next week post something else like it is a movement and I hope that that is the case as well. Well, ladies, thank you so much for your time today Tina Dion and Steph you've all been it's so amazing to talk to. I've enjoyed every second of this and I would talk to you for hours longer if we all could this is just the first part you know, we we wanted to start the conversation have an open conversation but It's more than that, like we've discussed today. So I think I'll leave it with you two Dion and Tina and telling us what we can do and what actions you would like to see from from other people.
Dion 55:10
So I think the first thing for me is, listen, there's lots of voices at the moment, lots of those voices are definitely worth listening to. So you can get a thorough understanding. And then part of that listening is also learning. So learning about what we've been talking about today, and going beyond just what you hear on the news, what can you do to find out more, and that also has an impact on individuals, on communities, on different cultures, but also society and also business. And then I think the final thing is to love because I think that is definitely possible for all of us. We have a love of self. And we can definitely share that in the community that we're part of, but also a real love for business as well. And that knows no boundaries. So I think those are the things I'd like to leave you with.
Tina 55:53
Yeah, you stole my last word, Dion. I don't know how.
Dion 55:57
I know honesty, love, love. Is the early way. You know, on top of my ID page I wrote love liberates just because during the right thing sometimes just leaves you feeling free. And I think behind all the things that we're all everyone or humanity and civilization is pursuing, it's just that ability to just feel at one and just free. And honestly, sometimes that does take the difficult things in order to be in that place where you can sleep at night. These issues are real, and not just something we see as very far from us and just India. And I believe that's the only way in which we can bring about change where it becomes something we bring home to ourselves and just address it in that way. Be the step forward right now, I believe.
Anna Flockett56:44
Definitely. Well, that was an amazing end to an amazing episode. Thank you everyone for listening. And we will be back soon with some more amazing and powerful women to listen to thank you.
Cereal entrepreneurAnna Flockett0:01
serial entrepreneur.
Hello and welcome to a special episode for serial entrepreneur podcast and from startups magazine. My name is Anna Flockett. And today I will be your host for a very special episode focusing on females and especially about the current movement, Black Lives Matter. I am so pleased to be joined today by my lovely co host, Steph Melodia, the founder of glue, the marketing agency for startups. Steph, it's lovely to have you on how are you today?
Steph 0:34
Thank you so much Anna I'm very well thank you and pleasure to be here co hosting this podcast episode with you today. As Anna said, my name is Stephanie melodia. I am the founder of bloom which is a startup marketing agency, which I founded two and a half years ago. We exist exclusively to support entrepreneurs with their exciting business journeys through practical marketing and beautiful creativity and the whole topic of feminism, Diversity, Inclusion is something that I'm very passionate about. So an honour to be co hosting this special episode with you today. We're actually joined today by Dion Jude who is a co founder and coach, and Tina charisma, who's a social entrepreneur and writer. Tina, would you like to kick off with your intro? Please?
Tina 1:21
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Startup magazine is such an awesome platform. And we've done projects together actually. So it's a pleasure to be part of the awesome work that you guys do, putting entrepreneurs at the forefront of change a bit about me. So my background is in international development, I am a social entrepreneur. So I primarily work on projects under my NGO called charisma campaign, which is an advocacy and cultural platform. We work to empower communities, both at the community minority level and internationally as well. So we work on a lot of women programme from events to actually social activism and writing on social justice issues which I do most of within that area. In terms of my work. I have been actually working within the sector for over 10 years now as even a teenager where I started with mindful movement with activism, which I was very passionate about. So that's worked a long way over the years.
Steph 2:26
Amazing. And as this is the serial entrepreneurs podcast, and most important question, what's your favourite cereal?
Tina 2:32
My favourite cereal is cocoa pops, but I am ashamed to say this right now because now I have to eat Weetabix. I'm trying to be healthy. Those cheeky things of like eating cocoa pods is out the windows. I kind of been bad for that. Now I'll say Coco Pops/Wheatabix
Steph 2:51
Just take the cocoa puffs. It's all good. I'm going to actually just take this opportunity quickly, just as you say coco pops to plug another female founded business, which is called blondies kitchen which actually sells bottles of not chocolate milk but Coco pop milk. It is amazing. You need to check that out for sure. Thank you so much Tina. Dion, would you like to give us your intro please?
Dion 3:16
Hey everybody hope you are well. So my name is Dion Jude. I am a serial entrepreneur. It feels like I've been in business for a very long time. I however, returned to business only about two years ago. My first business was a business called nappy cakes UK, which was a unique baby gift, which was over about 15 years ago now. And I eventually got that business into Selfridges. I don't want into the world of education, and I've been in education for about 10 years. I'm currently working as a deputy head teacher in a school, but then I left last year to return to business. I believe that I am a true entrepreneur at heart. I wanted to get back into developing my ideas. So one of the ideas that I've developed is called Overstand You it is a self coaching plan. form which assists individuals to know and grow themselves using radical self inquiry so using questions that they can use to increase their self awareness, and over the carpet period, I've just started a business with my daughter. She is 17 years old. I saw that she was lounging around after finishing her, B tech studies and A level waiting to go on to university and I thought, why don't we do something together? So we've just launched something called one link up and just really allowing her to learn the skills which hopefully will be useful for her in the future.
Anna Flockett4:32
Incredible. Wow.
Tina 4:33
That is amazing. And most importantly, Dion, what's your favourite cereal? As a serial entrepreneur? I'm expecting a good answer.
Dion 4:41
Well, I'm actually gluten intolerance so I don't eat cereal. However, If I had to choose Tina, I definitely would have said coco pops. And I think it's that it's that two in one you get the rest Chris Krispies but also you get the chocolate the same time.
Steph 4:56
Cocoa Pops is a winner and I don't know if anyone's had the chance to ask you that. Question. What's your favourite?
Anna Flockett5:01
Thank you? No, they haven't. I think mine's a really weird one but I'm a standard Cheerios girl like,
Tina 5:06
oh, cheerios is good. I like Cheerios.
Dion 5:09
I'm not mad cherrios is good stuff. I'm not mad at all.
Anna Flockett5:14
And Steph, we cannot ask you What is your favourite cereal?
Steph 5:18
Okay, well obviously I can't say Cocoa Puffs now. So I'm going to go Frosties because you still got the good stuff that the cocoa box gives you because you still got the sweet milk and everything afterwards.
Anna Flockett5:29
Amazing. Well, thank you all for your amazing intros, I can tell I'm surrounded by some incredible women today. So I'm really excited about our chat. It was nice to get off, you know, to a light hearted start and then bit more about each other. And I'm excited to learn more about you guys and your experiences. So obviously with you know, the recent events that have gone on, it's brought the Black Lives Matter movement about which is a great thing, you know, bringing it to light and like making a lot more people realise and we wanted to take It's time to do this podcast to kind of educate other people I know I myself needed some more education, and I want to learn and I want to be part of the movement and help so we thought why not better to have this open conversation and speak to two people that can obviously talk about their personal experiences and what they've been through and their opinions. It doesn't have to be what you've been through it can just be what you think as well, it's, it's good to get like a mixture of opinions. So I thought the first question may be an obvious one, but obviously with the whole recent events, and then the Black Lives Matter movement coming about how has this made you Dion and Tina feel as black women?
Dion 6:39
I think to myself, I think it's pretty sad I think when I saw it, and definitely didn't want to watch it again. So really, really sad but also a sense of Here we go again, as a black woman, these incidents seem to be happening on a regular basis and not even to say that I've been become desensitised. I don't even feel desensitised. Because every time that it happens, It's just to see what is the last one. And but it's just really sad that it is still happening. And you know that people are now out on the street, but actually out on the street together really supporting the cause. But also it goes beyond the course. So I think that it's great. We've got the Black Lives Matter movement, but also let's have a real in depth look at inequality, inclusion and diversity. So I hope that it doesn't stop when the marches stop. Definitely.
Anna Flockett7:27
I couldn't agree more. Tina, how is it made? You feel?
Tina 7:29
Yeah, I think similar to Deion Actually, these are issues that have been ongoing for generations. So I think my first initial reaction was just like there is this continuation of these issues that for such a long time have remained on the surface because I do think it's the fact that Oh, wow, here again, like we have another issue that's happened over another few years. But these are actual subtle issues that occur in people's lives. And it just Take sometimes extreme cases for people to kind of realise how extreme these issues are. But nevertheless, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen every day. So I think it was just like the reaction of just being able to kind of portray to the world like, this is what happens. And I've interacted with a lot of people, both within the community, the black community and outside. And it has been interesting to host these conversations and to come together. I've actually been personally part of some of the protests over in London, and it's just the feeling the atmosphere, and just the whole vibe of the movement is just so powerful. So I think for me, it's just been like a awakening moment that I felt that it's about time that people saw this for what it is, and stood up to kind of really defend and to stand by the black community in order to kind of bring about some of these changes,
Dion 8:59
you know, oh, So when it happened, and there was no immediate response, I think for me, it was like, that was maybe expected because that's just what happens, you know, black people get killed. And then this is the usual response that actually we have to fight for there to be to be justice. And so, you know, is it the case again, that nobody's really listening, nobody's really interested. It's just another black life that's gone. And therefore So be it, so when, you know, it's really interesting that now people are willing to have these conversations. And you know, they're willing to have a really good look at themselves and to really learn and black, white, Asian, you know, across the board, not just not just white people, or Caucasian people, you know, everybody's now interested in having the debate and i think that's that's really key.
Tina 9:42
It's a blessing in disguise if I can use that obviously treading carefully because no one wish for that to happen. And you're quite right, Dion. You know, that video that went viral was absolutely sickening. And as we're taught, we've only just started the conversation and I feel physically sick. I can feel I can feel And my God, I can feel it in my chest. But you're right at the very least, I don't want to say necessarily the positives that have come from it, but it has provided a catalyst for these conversations. And to your point, as long as it is, it's a catalyst for sustainable change that it's not just Are you post your black picture on Instagram? And that's that it's what are we going to do? We need to take this much more seriously,
Dion 10:23
I will have to kind of step in and just kind of steer that because from that perspective, I know a lot of people will find problematic it's not a blessing in disguise, in a sense of the fact it doesn't take a black life to kind of be the last for the world to kind of react in that sense. That's a life, you know. And I think platforms like this everyone is like chiming in from different perspectives. So it's worth to kind of correct this while we're at it. Yeah, for sure. But the point that I'm trying to make as well is just the fact that people go to extremities of these things. And it's part of their lives. And I think sometimes the world has just taken to it as like, well, there's a blacklight. But that's, that's someone's son and I wrote a piece for vogue the other day, and it was like, What does someone sign that someone's proper, you know that someone's family member, and they have lost their life to a system that is oppressive, and the pain that they're going to be feeling like no one in the world has any place to kind of compromise that at all. Because it's right, in a sense of the momentum that has been backed over the last few months after the whole death has been enormous. But it shouldn't be happening. That is not the platform for people to be dying, and there's not a victory death, you know, I mean, so my point is the fact that we have to do better in terms of what I do agree with what you're saying, and that sense of the sustainability aspect of it. This can't just be an event and it's failed if it continues to be, hey, another black person, like we've had it here in the UK. And that's why people have actually taken up to the streets because we have our own history of racial discrimination in our systems, you know, with with our young black men, you know, without young black boys and women. So this, for me is a time for people actually to wake up to the realities, rather than seeing the kind of analyzation of that and the media and just thinking, oh, wow, yeah, like, no, it's not just about the glamorization. It's about that activeness of people to actually look deep within themselves and think how can I change this because everyone is part of the problem at the same time. No, that's totally Of course seen. And I think that also to connect the dots a little bit there, Dion what you were sharing before about how your radical self coaching that you've developed and actually, those what was it it How is it that you phrase that with the power of the self inquiry? I think there's that's extremely pertinent nowadays. These times, right? Whether it's white people in particular for ally ship and looking at it to your point to actually to use this as an opportunity to finally look within yourselves be more active about how you course correct all of your daily actions, your unconscious bias, all these things that you do without having so much of that awareness usually.
Yeah. And you know, going back to just briefly what you were saying before Tina, there's something about this particular event because it's happened before and it's happened since so there was something quite unique about this, that's allowed that learning to happen. But I think in terms of that self inquiry, it goes on so many different levels. So it goes on on a personal level, and that's black why Asian alike and but also on an institutional level as well. Now, one thing that you never say is that you fully understand, you know, with somebody when you've not been through that experience yourself, you can empathise, but understand it is a whole different, different category. So, you know, just as long as we do continue that self inquiry and that we just don't have another inquiry and from the government, hundreds of thousands As a pound spent, you know, just to come up with a few recommendations that aren't fully implemented. But those questions are definitely crucial. 100%.
Anna Flockett14:07
And I guess that leads on to my next kind of big question and kind of area, but you both kind of already touched on it. But where do you think that main root of the problem lies? Where is it stemmed from? And how is it got so out of control?
Dion 14:22
Well, race like a lot of the other social evils that we face, it's a historical thing. It's a psychological thing. And I, when I'm often asked questions like this, I just pretty much want to take it back to the basics, as in this is our histories, and these are histories playing out in our present times and our current realities. And the problem is that we haven't questioned a lot of the things enough or we have but people are also somehow like comfortable in their privileges, that they refuse to kind of shake the tables to an extent where we can have some actual real meaningful change. Because right now in 2020, if as an organisation you're now going around sending emails and doing policies around diversity and inclusion in 2020, like, hey, like, really, if you're now in that position when you're doing that, like, I'm actually questioning your role right now. And on the morning and a few weeks, between the process he was getting emails from clients that we've worked with and people passing out things that can you do this. I was exhausted that week, because I've been like opportunities are there the spaces are that but people do not want to do what is right. So in terms of the roots, I, I strongly believe that is a part of a civilization that we really need to challenge and make sure that our systems are aligned with our processes of challenging the norms in which we have accepted for so long.
Anna Flockett16:00
I agree. And before I come on to you on something that just came into my head as, as you were saying that there is something that's come out of the recent events a lot is people saying it's no good. Now to not be racist, you need to be anti racist. And I've never thought about it like that before. But not saying just because you're not being racist actively doesn't mean that you're also helping, like, that's what they say, Now, isn't it like being silent, is sometimes just as harmful. And I I'm not because I'm a bad person. I just hadn't thought about it. And that is my fault. But I think this now it's like making people realise a bit more. And it's, it's like a wake up call that we should have had a long time ago. So like, it's our own fault. But like, if we can talk about something that's like, good that has come out of it. It has made people realise and I'm sorry, it's taken that long, but I'm glad now that I have realised that sorry, Dion, what what were you going to say about you know, where the three tips to problem lies.
Dion 17:01
Yeah, I think you know, these conversations have been happening for a very long time. And they happen in different ways in different places. I think the differences now people are willing to listen more than before. You know, I grew up in, in Preston in Lancashire, I live in London now, but I'm a Lancashire lass. And I remember, you know, growing up, and not giving away my age, but growing up in the 70s and 80s, you know, being a primary school, you know, one of the things was, you know, I was the only black person in my, in my year at school, and faced quite a lot of racism and never really understood, you know, as a child, you know, where is this? Where is this coming from, but also remembering the certain conversations that we don't have around white people. These are conversations that we have within within our group, because they won't understand them. When you try to have these conversations. You know, about then people would say, Oh, you've got a chip on your shoulder, and eventually just shut you up. And you wouldn't you wouldn't say anything. And but going back to the root, you know, I believe that the root is stems back to the development of white supremacy. You know, the idea of That whiteness is better than anything else, you know, why do we have the concept of black and white in the first place, and then you've got Asian, Chinese, all of these different people can be labelled and identified according to their country of origin. I want to call the black woman because of the event of transatlantic slavery, where Africans were taken from Africa taken to the Caribbean and the Americas. And as a result of that, we've now got this identity. And there's lots of debate out there, whether we should be called black or whether we should be called African. But Africa in itself is a massive continent. With a wealth of different countries a wealth of you know, even one country can have a wealth of different languages. But we have this idea and this concept of blackness, but also, it's a game gainst whiteness, so I think if we really want to have a true conversation, we need to look at the root which is white supremacy, which was fueled by, um, scientific racism in the 1800s. You know, this whole idea that there are five different races, you know, and one is better than the other, you know, went on for hundreds of years and definitely supported the idea that we have some groups are better than others. And therefore we can pitch one against another and look at them differently if you're looking at the root cause that's where I believe it has come from, you know, can we ever get to the root of understanding white supremacy? Maybe not. But let's start having a conversation.
I agree with that, to and to even add to that as well, in terms of conversation, and I've said this for years. In fact, I'm even more irritated by this some of these movement and the fact that I feel like a lot of the things I've been saying been saying for years, you know, I have made a video at the back of somewhere on my social media where I was like out doing a protest, I think that was like 2017 or something like that, like, on fascism within our local area. And these conversations are super uncomfortable. In fact, I've been saying things like this again, for years where I'm like, the conversation that we need to have this so uncomfortable, but we need to have it and the fact that it's uncomfortable is the reason why we need to have it because people have gone through things over the course of history, where they were, you know, putting in shameful positions where they were stripped of everything where they will looted, you know, and that was, that was literally so, so bad and so uncomfortable that we have generations after is still paying the cost of that. That's brutal. So there is no conversation that we can have that does not eroose some kind of conflict in uncovered because it is a history of that. And it boils down to us making some of these drastic changes that will represent just the shifts that we have had to make over the course of history
Steph 20:44
To chip in how I've been aware of how physically sick this conversation in itself is making me feel and then quickly realised if just a conversation is making you feel uncomfortable, then imagine actually living your life like this every single day. So, again, there isn't an understanding, I will never be able to understand. But there is certainly that empathy. At least that's what's going on in my stomach at the moment. And just to also touch on a comment that you made as well there before Dion. So my my partner's conversation today is because I hosted a series of Instagram Live interviews over the past few weeks and use that as an opportunity to bring on board guests who were people of colour Africa and black. Again, it's like, not exactly sure if I'm saying the right thing or what terminology to use. And there was a few things that came out of those conversations that I'd like to use this as an opportunity to amplify their voices. But what I mentioned just quickly now is Deon, you were saying before about this concept of blackness and how Africa in itself you Africa is a continent, that's not a country, there's many countries within that one single continent. And, you know, just within these few interviews that I hosted, I had guests who had ancestry from Ghana, Jamaica, Kenya. Some of them were born in the UK. One was born in Germany in Europe. And you think how is this single brush that everyone has been tarnished with because they happen to have been born with more melanin in their skin, like that's literally what it comes down to. So it is here from an anthropological perspective, if you like, it can be extremely, I think any social injustice. If you are able to extrapolate yourself from the problem for a second, it can be quite fascinating to actually look at and just like when you break it down, it's just beyond ridiculous. There's no there's no words for it is crazy. The other thing I just want to mention just before I do forget is how in one of these interviews that somebody else opened my eyes to so I had guests included Mandy nyarko, Baba tingy Fairbank, the jazz brought in Nancy Obama have not forgetting anybody, and they all shared such amazing like pearls of wisdom and really open my eyes during these conversations. I remember one of them saying this isn't a black person's problem is that this is the other thing, right? Like why I think you were saying as well before about how the conversation previously was restricted to within your own circles as if it's your problem as if you were the ones who have to find the solution. Whereas actually, white supremacy is the issue here. Actually, this is a wider social issue actually is something that white people need to actively consider and take into account. And we shouldn't be relying on p we shouldn't be relying on It's fantastic to be using these platforms to give you guys a voice and amplify what it is that you're saying, you know, it's bad enough if you like that you happen to have been born with some more melanin in your skin, you know, and the racism and everything else that you've encountered by default of that fact, without the added pressure of you having the unrequested obligation to have to be the educators for the rest of society as well.
Dion 23:52
Yeah. And also education all around you know, just because somebody is Black or African does not mean you know, I was learning African history from A very young age at secondary school. There's many people that I know that happen to just come to it as adults. And there are people who are far beyond who knows so much more about the history than I. And, you know, even some of the circles that I'm in, you know, I'm still amazed by all the things that they're talking about, because I've had no clue about this. You know, I was in a debate the other day where somebody was saying, Oh, you shouldn't be call ourselves African, because African actually was a European name imposed on the continent. I'd never heard of that before. So I'm also you know, it's not an awesome situation. It's an education is an education and education all around and really uncomfortable conversations, but it's the willingness to come to the table, to listen, to be open and to really engage in something and to be prepared to be part of the change.
Tina 24:42
I agree with that Dion I am definitely off the point of view where I feel like the conversations do need to be had just because the importance of empathy is so important in this just because everyone is learning at the same time. The essence of everyone is on a journey. And I think having the uproach to want to know is such a great place to be, because that's the place which will unlock the future. And I know there's going to be a lot of people who disagree with this. And a lot of my view is just very much trying to represent the diverse views out there. So this particular view is my own. It's my own in a sense of, I feel like there really needs to be that element of compassion and empathy of creating communities and having platforms like this, where people can can feel education, because I once said, within a community, if you haven't crossed paths with someone, sometimes you just have no idea what that community is going to do unless you actually communicate and, you know, learn a lot about each other. And that's sometimes that's what the divide requires for you to just cross over to another side to see what the reality of others are. And the more you do that, the more You learn. And I say this because even in a time of pride and transgender issues, I've had to be in a position where I'm learning where I've had to be in a position where, and broadening my awareness and skills and just understanding the depth of it. And there's just so many complexities within our society, not an excuse for any injustice, again, but I'm just trying to highlight the importance of us to just put ourself in that point of education and, and nobility, to be able to kind of take away the layers of what we feel we know and be accepting of the knowledge that comes away. And that's the only future forward in my opinion.
Anna Flockett26:39
100% as you were just saying, we're all human. At the end of the day, everyone is human and that what you just said Tina, about, you know, labelling and inclusion in every sense. Obviously, we're here today to talk about, you know, racism and the colour of your skin and stuff, but like, there's so many aspects in life that people are penalised for that they can't Help been been a woman, you know, we're still on that battle as well. And that, like you mentioned is Pride Month, but like there's so many things that humans are just nasty about. And it is baffling because at the end of the day, no matter what colour your skin is, what gender you are, what what you identify as what your sexuality is, we're all human, like, everyone is the same. And it's taken me maybe until I'm 26 years old to realise, like, we're so horrible as a human.
Dion 27:30
We have so much to add to that one thing that over the last few weeks I've just really had an opportunity to zone into is the fact that civilization is such a still new developed species, you know, human times, were really not that old, in a sense, you know, with the constant changes in the capacity in our world and as well, it does, it will take time it will take a lot of shifts and great him and again, none of what I'm saying As an excuse for anything, okay? Because the fact is that the opportunities have been there for all this time. And what a lot of people are frustrated about is the fact that, hey, this is not the first time this is not the second time, you know, and that is the problem that is a point of anger. But I do have a lot of people, it's just like, oh, how long, but then at the same time, it's really about time for people to wake up with an awareness of just the realities of our society and just the challenges of people that people experience beyond your own personal lives and how you can connect with that in order to change and bring about certain kind of cohesion in the relationships we have. And I think it's even great to start off having this conversation and I one of the reasons why I thought this was great. It's just that, you know, creating platforms to have conversations again, like this is awesome. It's a great start, you know, someone else is gonna hit It is who has never met with me, or has never met you on, you know, maybe having access to conversations like this that are more that are open. And that's why I've had to correct some things in terms of the way it's been presented, because ideas go on to amplify people's lives. And the same ideas of us today, you know, making our judgments about race and the ideas of sex. And these are all the things that we need to bring on the review to be able to kind of analyse and correct
Anna Flockett29:35
Yeah, I couldn't agree.
Dion 29:36
Can I just mention one thing? I think one thing that we need to definitely include in this is the concept of power, and you can't divorce that idea from this whole situation. So even though that we've talked about, you know, white and black, even within white, you've got the class system, you know, you've got you've got a hierarchy, you know, there was some groups who are severely disadvantaged, you know, the working customers, so logical perspective, the working class, you know, some would call the underclass who who seriously suffer as a result of their socio economic status. And I think that having a look at power. So the transatlantic slavery system, really developed as a result of capitalism and wanting to keep that whole system going, you know, we're now moving into a postmodern society where things are changing, you know, young people who say, we're no longer going to believe in these grand narratives and all of these amazing what seem to be amazing ideas, we're actually going to challenge your concepts, and your ideas about race, about gender, about sexuality, and age and all of those other things. So it's a it's a really, it's an exciting time.
Anna Flockett30:36
Definitely. And I think that kind of leads us on nicely to my next kind of section. So be it. Tina, I know you do a lot of work, especially in the campaigning for for women, Dion I'm sure you do as well. But my main question is, what kind of challenges do you think you both have faced being a black woman in this industry?
Tina 30:57
So um, I think one of the things Do from what we've already spoken about is this concept of birds of a feather flock together. I think you've heard that say before where, you know people like attracts like. And so sometimes when you walk into a room and you see somebody looks looks like you, if you're a woman, and you're in a room full of men, and there's another woman, then you might just gravitate towards her. And it could just be that sometimes it happens unconsciously. And so there are times, you know, I've even been a keynote speaking event where I've spoken in front of a group of white people, there's no black people don't and it's just me. And even at networking events in regards to business, sometimes you would go and you might be the only black person you might see somebody else. And you know, you kind of have this nod, you acknowledge each other. And so there are so many opportunities in places that I've been in as a startup founder, where I don't see people that look like me. And some people say, well, is that important, this is just business, but I think that it is, especially in regards to your network who is in your network is really important. And there are some networks that just not help Just have not been open to people of colour, which are now becoming more open. So as Tina said, lots of emails are coming through to startup competition that came through yesterday. And this is something that my daughter can enter. And what they're saying is we've been running this competition for five years, and we've never had a person of colour, enter the competition. So there's lots of opportunities. But sometimes you don't know about these opportunities, because you're not part of that network. And these things are only really shared within that network. And sometimes you go but you're you sort of stand out because you're not really part of what's normally going on. So I think not being part of that situation can cause us not to be aware of opportunities, and also think in terms of acceptance as well. I've been along to a lot of networking events, seminars, presentations, exhibitions that are all black for people of colour for people of African descent, and you feel a lot more comfortable because you see people like you can have open conversations You know, people are sharing ideas, people are sharing opportunities, you know, people are being themselves, you know, there's no need to try and look and fit and feel and present in a certain way because actually, you just can just get on and you just, you know, you just have those conversations. And so I think the final thing for me is funding. As I said, the last light just three days the amount of funding that I've had come my way as a startup founder just because of the colour of my skin is amazing. Where was all of that before it's definitely something that we can take advantage of. But it just begs the question is Why?
I mean, everything the developer said I think it goes so much deeper meaning that the whole section ality of it is just very um, it for a lot of people can mean different things. You know, whether you're going or you want to talk about your personal experiences in life or whether you want to talk up talk about entrepreneurship, and honestly, I could go over so much right now, but backtrack. white privilege is real. I believe that white privilege is real. And it's one of the reasons why Dion as you're saying a lot of the things that you're now experiencing, it's not because people actually have the power to do that. And for so long have sat on there. You have a power and you're in a position and my question that I've been asking a lot of white people over the last few weeks, what is in your hands, you want to help stop racism, what is in your hands, because actually, it takes just one individual to reach out to mentor to support to fund you know, to elevate people, and that can go a long way, within my personal work in terms of charisma campaign, even though I'm a woman of colour black woman. I've never created that space, particularly just for black people. That does not go against any of the communities that specifically wrote for black women because it's so needed. aces are so sacred and have so much feeling in them. To me, my purpose has always been to bring about the discussions and create a diverse community that people can interact with people that they've never had an opportunity to meet before. So that's a very core part of my principle when it comes to some cultural immersion and confusion and just horror admiration of all those things. However, we have women organisations that continue to exist, where you have panels and you have things and it's just all white women. How do we feel comfortable with this in 2020? And I'm not talking about last year like Like, right now today, we still have things that are online and going on and people can happily put things out where it's just not represented. And I'm so sure that does, like people. Don't think at all There is no black person who's, who's eloquent enough to speak really like People out there and you have to seek for them, you have to search for them and empower them. I told someone the other day, I need you to empower me in order for me to come and empower you. Because for so long, I'm going to use my personal example, I have felt so drawn out and exhausted by just really being present for communities that have never, ever had the decency to even pull back out into me. And that's insulting. In this day and age, it's just not happening any longer. So I do really want to put the call to action for organisations to really think about how they can empower the black community and the resources that they can pay back into the black community in order to work collaboratively to push forward towards a future that is more representative that is more stronger. You know, it's about strength. It's about sustainability. It's about an equality that is of essence you know, and it's not just about talking and lip service and, and feeling 'oh poor black people' within one day, you know, that's, that's, that doesn't solve it and that's discriminatory in itself, you know, but it's actually really being able to understand the power of diverse economies and being able to print all that together to make your work even stronger. That's an advantage. You know, think about the ideas that people can bring together if they think about being able to expand in working with others and, and can I say, Can I just say I'm not plugging stuff that I can but can I just say that startup magazine has been a great example of that, honestly, from the very first day, I got in touch with one of your marketing This is not an ad, by the way, they didn't pay me to be like, you know, just just a support and, and that's the energy that that I'm been kind of tapped into just people who are just very open to listening and to support even in the little way that they can. And that should be our approach, you know, because every community has a minimum amount of resources, sometimes it can't be big, you know, but you do have something at the end of the day that you can pull back out to support other teams,
Dion 38:13
that's quite important as well is, you know, there are some great opportunities that are out there. And also, I think for for black people, you know, having that confidence to move forward. You know, I have definitely excelled in business so many ways, because I see the opportunity, I go for the opportunity. I have not non no personal barriers, the external barriers that exist, I'm gonna find a way through, you know, I've gotten a mentoring programme, you know, I go to networking events, I'm teaching myself about business, but also it's about having that confidence to speak to people and have that conversation. You know, I found allies in a room where there's only me as a black person who were Northerners, and that's a common thing that we've we've got in common. And so it's about having that confidence getting out there having those conversations and sometimes you know, not assuming that it's not gonna work out because you're black, because also I've had those comments. Sometimes we have colleagues who feel a lack of confidence, or they've had negative experiences and assume that it's going to play out in the same way.
Anna Flockett39:07
Yeah, I have a question. But I don't know if it's too uncomfortable. So you don't have to answer
Unknown Speaker39:13
it. This is about how
Anna Flockett39:15
I know when I feel
Speaker 4 39:18
time in raw. I know,
Anna Flockett39:20
I know how I know. And I'm going in hard. And I don't know if it's not appropriate. But do you think that obviously, sometimes you've had more obstacles because you're a person of colour, but also because you're a woman? So there's two things that people are holding against you? And do you think sometimes it, then you've got to like jump over more barriers? Like has it been even harder for you? And do you have you ever felt that last people ever made you feel like that?
Tina 39:49
I think for me, so I'm just going to jump in there because otherwise I'll forget. I'm working on a project at the moment that requires a lot of self reflection and it's just in the light of all These issues that I've really had an opportunity to self reflect to that level where I think sometimes people just don't know. You know, I started off as a young girl super active and just have worked myself into spaces. But I think some people just don't know how much you carry on is the weight of that that sometimes can be so sad because I grew up in Korea don't like hard working, just going for things for myself. And I had to have people who actually saw my persistence to actually be like, wow, like your talent, your tenacity and just being able to support and people just don't realise the psychological, emotional barriers. It doesn't have to just be your colour is the fact that you are black and sometimes have lived inside to errors or experience certain things in itself is a trauma that a lot of people carry in has its level because not everyone has gone through this. I can only speak for myself. There are things that I've been in cases where it's hurt me, it could have just been to someone saying something, but it's hurt me on a deeper level beyond the surface of it. A pretty great example that I've never actually shared my first ever role that I had. I had I had a manager who was white and she was female. And that's a problem I had. Because I think sometimes as well, like even within the feminist sphere, where you have women who are like, yeah, we're empowering women, but like, how much of other colour women do you kind of encompass within your space? I did correct a woman that I work with and she got emotional. Why? Because I was right. And I'm very I'm never harsh on my approach. Like I said, I'm a firm believer in compassionate empathy. After correcting her, she got emotional about it. And guess who got in trouble? Yeah, that was me. I got in trouble. For me. That was a biggest opportunity. I've had Had to that date I left home to live in an area and have my first ever job that one action took me back years. I had to spend years recovering, she would have never ever known how much that opportunity meant for me at that time. Her response could have been totally different, right. But that's my point in saying that sharing a very uncomfortable story in a platform like this and the fact that sometimes you don't know how much your reaction can impact people. And we do have to be sympathetic and empathetic and compassionate about the people that we deal with because a therapist one says, you know, sometimes our wounds go so much deeper than just the things that we see on the surface that we experienced as members of our tribe or ethnicity or by colour. We have so much things attached to that in itself. So we have to be very Kinda
Dion 43:00
thanks for sharing Tina. I think for me, I think it's built a resilience within me. And I feel like I've been fighting Actually, I've stopped fighting. But I felt for a very long time, I felt that I was constantly fighting and battling, and that I needed a challenge to be able to succeed. And what I realised is that I don't actually need that. But what the whole experience has taught me is to become really resilient. I don't feel that I probably am disadvantage because I'm a woman and black, but I don't acknowledge it, or I don't let that hold me back. You know, I suppose, you know, if somebody is black, disabled, and a woman you know, which which one sort of comes first, it's kind of difficult to safely look at it in that way. So for me, I think the whole experience has taught me to be really resilient. I no longer fights Tina. And but I relish the opportunity. I've learned from being that young girl living in a town where nobody looks like me to come into London where lots of people look like me, but the same issue still persists to now. Reaching out into a sphere of worldwide opportunities, and just seeing what I can make of it.
Anna Flockett44:06
Definitely. And it's really interesting to hear you say, obviously you were fighting and now you've, you've stopped. It's quite powerful to hear as we were talking about power earlier. So yeah, thank you.
Dion 44:17
What was happening is that I almost needed a challenge in my life to give me momentum to me was about to feel motivated, I need to challenge whereas now I don't, I don't have those personal goals. If I want to go for something, I want to go for it simply because,
Anna Flockett44:31
yeah, and Do you feel better now? Do you feel like relief?
Dion 44:35
I do. I do. Because I can create all day I can build all day, and I can support and coach without the need to do it because I'm scared of something or worrying about something. I do it now because I'm empowered and I hope to continue empowering others
Steph 44:50
it comes down to energy. At the end of the day we have our energy is is not an infinite resource, as I found out firsthand in building my own company For the first time, and as you say, it's just part of that not fighting anymore is self preservation, right? Because it's actually this is energy that can be directed towards something more productive. Whatever your definition is about your own business. It's obviously a fight worth fighting but at what cost right to yourself to your own health to your own personal situation. And that's where the whole conversation of ally ship as well has been brought to the forefront in this wider Black Lives Matter conversation because it's not this is not an issue that only one segment of the population with a responsibility lies This is all of us. We can't just leave you fighting the good fight.
Tina 45:42
I love what you said just said right now Dion and i think i'm i'm definitely a space where I found so much peace and that comes with just what I do in the sense of like, what I do and where I'm at right now is so insane. Like, I am just so thankful to God to be In a space where I can just freely manifest and be who I've called to be, it is a privilege in the sense of being able to fully be in an environment where you fully bring yourself. But not everyone has that privilege. And when we talk about fighting, I think there are some people who in a sense, have to continue to fight in the sense of like, they haven't actually reached a point yet where they can walk up, show up and come as they are. And that's the problem we have, in the sense that until everyone reaches that point, then it's like, we still have barriers to break the process. It's going to take time it's going to take education is going to take policy, it's going to take structural adjustments for us to reach that stage. So but as someone who again, has come from a corporate background, and still within that sector, it's just it can be a challenge and sometimes in terms of really being able to adjust when the structures are super tight enough that You can't see me on do those times. Yeah.
Anna Flockett47:03
Sometimes it's about things you were taught wrong, you have to unlearn those things because we were just probably too ignorant and didn't realise how wrong they were. And it's conversations like these. And everything that's going on at the moment is opening, more and more people's eyes to that, to hopefully make a change. Ladies we've spoke about so much. And we have covered my final kind of section. But I do want to ask you, in case there's anything you want to add on, but my final question to you would be, what changes do we need to make in our industry to make it more inclusive?
Tina 47:40
Yeah, I think like we've already established there are systematic changes and needs to be had, as well as being able to have workforces that exemplify the communities that we live in and there there is no way it's two ways about that. If you want to actually be in an environment that represents the world, you have to take the initiative to do that. And, again, like I mentioned, it's the onus is on every individual entrepreneur, and whoever you are to really start to seek out people who don't always look like you who don't always make you feel comfortable, who do bring up view that you're not used to, but for you to critically examine the impact of those ideas and thoughts and what that would mean for your business. And it's not something that you do. And my challenge for people and the reason why I'm acceptance of being part of this platform is to just put forth the voice that we we have to and if we just stay comfortable and and think about all and how emotional is going to make me feel or how you know how comfortable is going to make me feel then it's never going to happen but the era of lip service is over and honestly I believe the next time down to this level like society and civilization is gonna erupt. And that's just a warning really, because I think that the level in which we're at now people are frustrated. So things have to be done and done soon.
Dion 49:14
I think it's important to the education is really important. So and it's not just education in terms of what we're doing in the school setting. It's about that self education, that self inquiry, we're taking a really good look at ourselves questioning our unconscious bias, it's not okay to say I was born into a racist society, and therefore, this is how I am, you know, what do you need to learn to enable yourself to, to sort of challenge that inequality that's going on, and to really appreciate and share that diversity. So I think that's quite important in terms of the learning that we all need to do. And I think also, you know, keep sharing those opportunities that are out there so everybody can access and also not being afraid to take hold of those opportunities that come our way. You know, nobody wants to be given free money. Nobody wants to be given free opportunities, you know, Want to do it based on our merit? And so I think that's what we definitely are open to, and also open up opening up those networks. We want to be part of those networks. We have our own, which is absolutely fine. But also there's no reason why we shouldn't be party to the things that are going on that are available for for everyone. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And as a little sub question I had, I know, we said, you know, it's not your job to educate everyone. And it's not your job to be the leaders. But if you had any advice for young black females out there, you know, looking back at yourselves if you had any advice, maybe your younger selves, what would your advice be? I would say be yourself. love who you are. Find those opportunities, develop yourself personally, and also professionally Be brave and courageous enough to make those things happen. Find a mentor that's going to help move you forwards, maybe quicker than you could by yourself. Find people that are going to hold you accountable. Find a coach is going to help you get rid of those personal barriers. And just do it. Take that Action Day by day, step by step towards your vision and your goal and keep learning along the way.
Tina 51:14
Yeah, sounds great. I think similar, I would say to my younger self, I think I was a bit too hard on myself, I'd probably say what Dion was saying, just like, chill, chill, and just maybe just giving yourself a bit more time and just just resting in your journey that's just become a very important part of my life right now. I'm so thankful for the ability to flow and just kind of attract and be aligned to such great people and places and platforms. One interaction can lead to one thing and another and just if flows, there's a synergy there's a forced, you know what I'm about and, and you're able to freely reach out as a LAN and just create really meaningful interactions and networks. Via and I think it takes time. You can't You can't force that to happen. And you can't always make it happen with with people who don't want it to happen. But being able to kind of connect with people who are generally willing to learn and open up to offer their resources, like you're saying, Do mentorship or whatever that may entail in order to move you up is just the best way forward. Really?
Anna Flockett52:23
Definitely. Steph, did you have anything else you wanted to ask?
Steph 52:26
Or I am all ears and just taking on board everything that the lovely Dion and Tina are sharing, very grateful for your time as well today, ladies, I think ultimately it comes down to Enough is enough. It's the year 2020 tired of this bs now. And this is just making sure that you know what's really resonated with me listening to both of you as well as other conversations I've had. Just making sure that this is a movement, not a movement, you know that this is actually something that is going to incite stainable change that this is something that goes that runs more deeply with businesses today with the leaders of today, not the future it has to happen right here right now. Whilst, of course my wording earlier was not correct when we're referring to the George Floyd incident, definitely, the loss of anyone's life is definitely not a blessing. But it certainly is a catalyst to bring these conversations to the fore. So it really is taking that onus on all of us, right. Again, it's just not it's not just one segment of the population that have got the responsibility here to change things. We can only instigate real change all coming together and being allies in this because it's ridiculous. And as I said, Enough is enough now,
Anna Flockett53:44
yeah, I think Tina, when you were talking earlier, you said something along the lines of like is 2020 like how are people only just implementing these policies or thinking about it? And it's shocking like sometimes I feel ashamed. It is taken us this long for this many people to act on it and suddenly realise and want to do something. And it's, you know, you can say, Oh, it's the subconscious, like, like you said early on, it was just normal. But that was so wrong and it's taken us so long to realise that I just want to apologise. And yeah hopefully like Steph said, this is a movement and not a moment and I think it definitely will have it's definitely changed me and my thoughts and my views and I really do think it will have changed a lot of people it's not just a you know, let's post something on social media and then the next week post something else like it is a movement and I hope that that is the case as well. Well, ladies, thank you so much for your time today Tina Dion and Steph you've all been it's so amazing to talk to. I've enjoyed every second of this and I would talk to you for hours longer if we all could this is just the first part you know, we we wanted to start the conversation have an open conversation but It's more than that, like we've discussed today. So I think I'll leave it with you two Dion and Tina and telling us what we can do and what actions you would like to see from from other people.
Dion 55:10
So I think the first thing for me is, listen, there's lots of voices at the moment, lots of those voices are definitely worth listening to. So you can get a thorough understanding. And then part of that listening is also learning. So learning about what we've been talking about today, and going beyond just what you hear on the news, what can you do to find out more, and that also has an impact on individuals, on communities, on different cultures, but also society and also business. And then I think the final thing is to love because I think that is definitely possible for all of us. We have a love of self. And we can definitely share that in the community that we're part of, but also a real love for business as well. And that knows no boundaries. So I think those are the things I'd like to leave you with.
Tina 55:53
Yeah, you stole my last word, Dion. I don't know how.
Dion 55:57
I know honesty, love, love. Is the early way. You know, on top of my ID page I wrote love liberates just because during the right thing sometimes just leaves you feeling free. And I think behind all the things that we're all everyone or humanity and civilization is pursuing, it's just that ability to just feel at one and just free. And honestly, sometimes that does take the difficult things in order to be in that place where you can sleep at night. These issues are real, and not just something we see as very far from us and just India. And I believe that's the only way in which we can bring about change where it becomes something we bring home to ourselves and just address it in that way. Be the step forward right now, I believe.
Anna Flockett56:44
Definitely. Well, that was an amazing end to an amazing episode. Thank you everyone for listening. And we will be back soon with some more amazing and powerful women to listen to thank you.
Cereal entrepreneur