The Cereal Entrepreneur
'A connected world needs connected learning.' Anna & Shehzad get into the details of Kinteract's journey as a startup. Helping schools transition to remote learning , Kinteract can meet school's remote learning needs, from communication and parental engagement to homework settings.
During this time they are also offering full access for free until the end of July to support schools during the COVID-19 crisis.
Anna Flockett0:01
Cereal entrepreneur.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the serial entrepreneur podcast brought to you by startups magazine. My name is Anna Flockett. And I'll be your host. And today we will be chatting to Shahzad Najib, founder of kindred, which is basically a platform for digital and connected education. As it stays on their website, a connected world needs connected learning. And I don't think that could be any more true right now. Kinteract has been doing a lot of work in the COVID-19 space, and is helping schools transition to remote learning. They're offering new school customers impacted by the COVID-19 situation, full access to their platform for free until the end of July 2020. Shezia at first of all, welcome to the show. And thank you so much for being here. How are you today?
Speaker 10:49
I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me.
Anna Flockett0:51
Perfect. Thank you for being here. Now to start with. I just thought that we could tell our listeners a little bit more about Kinteract what you guys do and how you founded the company.
Speaker 11:00
Yep, so I found it around for four and a half years ago, our kind of reason of being what was the purpose of the resin? Detrick was really kind of looking at the education space, looking at the technology space, basically, essentially what we're trying to solve two kind of key questions, really the first kind of behaviour that we saw was, why is it that most apps in the educational edtech space cannot only just focus on academics? And that was it in terms of what your academic achievements are? So there's a lot of focus on that. There's no real focus on kind of skills of focus on chronic competencies. So that was question number one, or area number one, and then number two with it. So the fact that there was lots of kind of apps that existed, but they were kind of really telling you what Anna did, rather than kind of learning from that data, and then tell you what Anna should potentially do next. So there were the two kind of key focus areas for us to kind of get in and get into the space. And as a consequence of that, that's the kind of idea of what Kinteract was born and obviously over the years, working with, obviously real users working with kind of experts who've kind of guided us through the process, whether it's kind of senior leadership or people working in kind of government, or academia has been around the fight, where we sort of land ourselves now is what we kind of described as a social learning platform. So contract is a social learning platform that is essentially learner led. So it's all about the learner and how to place them at the centre of what we do. How does that then become personalised? And as a consequence of that, not just making it academic focus, but how do we link it to competencies? And, you know, we recognise today that there's a need for, you know, lifelong learning, you know, we're in the fourth industrial revolution, how do we kind of get a scenario where that kind of rescaling upskilling kind of happens at the very beginning as in when you go through kind of schooling, and then from that, what we're doing is that we're providing connectedness, whether it's in proximity I in the classroom, whether it's a distance or you remote learning. So for us, one of the things that we're quite proud of ourselves is that when we started this journey, we designed this to be agnostic to where learning is, where the teacher is how the teachings been delivered. With what's being lit and who the student was with, are they with a couple of students are their own their own? Is it a full class? So by us having those design principles in hand a few years ago, it means that led us to be in a good place, but in the current turbulent period that we find out obviously,
Anna Flockett3:14
Amazing. And how long ago was it that you founded contract? And how's the journey been so far from then till now?
Speaker 13:21
Yeah, so the kind of initial ideas in one's head was, I'd say, 2014 2015, as doing the initial ideas appeared. At the time, I was obviously working for Pearson, the world's largest Learning Company, and I was there and one of the things that we were doing as part of the the efficacy framework that person was developing was around looking at how do we ensure that if we've created a product, how can we demonstrate that this will have an impact on learning, which is fairly profound, because it's not just making something is ensuring that in its design in its use, and its outcomes, that there's an impactful for the learner or for teachers using it, it's benefiting the teacher, but it's true With her planning with its to do with her assessments, etc, etc. So while I was there, I had the fortunate unfortunate experience of reviewing many applications, whether they were pison owned, or whether they were based in large competitors, or whether it was startups and things like that. And obviously, I've been in education for a while I've set up schools, as well as managed education technology, the idea of kind of contract was born through the two things I mentioned earlier on in terms of the two problems, and then I would kind of finished up a lot of boxes leading their digital strategy. So it was late 2016, where I left the day job, so to speak, focused on Kinteract contract full time. And I think there's a couple of interesting things along the journey. And obviously, every founder entrepreneur building, something has these along the way, we know that the path isn't linear one, just that we know for students, that progression is linear, you're going to have bumps along the way, you're going to have some diversions, ultimately, you want to kind of get back to your final destination. So I think there's about three things I'd say that will come the biggest learnings along the way. The first one was when we started what was more interesting in terms of what how we're going to do it. So when it comes to data, there's in a simplified context. three components to data, how'd you capture which is number one? How do you synthesise which is number two? And then how do you learn from that, which is number three. And now view in the world was this was that many applications existed in the education, technology space, and we thought many were doing the capturing, so the capturing how learning is happening in the classroom, etc, etc, a few were doing the synthesiser, they're trying to make sense of it. And not nobody really was doing the learning from it. So essentially, the kind of AI machine learning essentially the sexy part of what people wanted to do. So our view coming into this was that we were going to work with providers or platforms already existed, take data from that, and then do like a what you would call an insights layer to that data. And then we will present an aggregated view to say, look, this is what's going on kind of thing. So people can still carry on using the applications they've already got. We will connect to those and give you a kind of learning layer on top. And it turns out that wasn't the case of when we started working with schools and we were quite fortunate. We said okay, if we're going to start this journey, where does the journey of learning start? So essentially from cradle to grave in that sense. So we started working with nurseries, kindergartens, and then some schools in the UK as well as internationally. So we're quite fortunate that we've got this real mix of real users, real teachers, real senior leaders, where we work with them on identifying what's their key problems? And how do we solve those key problems, rather than some kind of at distance, fanciful exercise that we think we know about it, or we think this is a problem. But we're actually working with real users, we were able to get insights very quickly. And that kind of shaped that journey. It turns out that the first maybe year and a half or two of our journey, we then went into the first part of the equation, which we really do want to do. And that was interesting, because then you kind of once again, your user led you teach a lead. And you know, one of the things if you look in the industry people have kind of lamented that reason why edtech hasn't worked is that it's been more tech than Ed, rather than Ed and tech. And for us, we were quite fortunate that it was the other way around. But obviously, that leads you away from the thing that you were building in the first place. It does have a speech by negative nonsense, right. And so that was the first thing that was really interesting. So we got our hands much more close to the ground. A lot more closer in that sense. So working with the schools, that was really interesting, we got more granular. And then the second thing as we got granular we learned was this, that what happens is that products in the education space tend to be very age specific, state specific or curriculum specific. So I'll give you an example this child goes to a nursery and imagine that this nursery is then connected to a school next to it. And in most cases, they might be in the same proximity. And this child is with these centres for a year, two years, three years, depending on at what point they joined. And what was really interesting is that when they then transition to the reception class, which in some cases might only be another hundred yards away, the teacher that then will look off for them in reception, in most cases, has no idea what that child did industry. In some cases, they'll have like a system where the child is kind of graded, and if they're lucky, actually the teacher might get a couple of sentences. And the reason for that is because the product that the reception or the primary school might use is different because it then manages assessment and curriculum slightly differently. So this product was The earliest foundation stage, this product now is for the English primary group. And we noticed this and then also it happens in secondary as well. So what happens is that not only have you lost data, just because they've transitioned from one stage of learning to the next this without the fact that this child has now moved schools, forget the fact that this child has now move towns, forget the fact this child has moved countries, whatever we're talking about, we're just looking at simple context of one class to another, the first major thing that we think we've addressed is that we've built a learning record that is agnostic to that. So basically, one of the things we do is that we allow you to carry on from early years to primary from primary to secondary, and now we're moving into the higher kind of workplace. So now building this kind of record that kind of follows you through. That's a major thing that we've kind of done along the way. And I think I said three, right, so and then the third part really is is looking at how we're helping the learner to have a path that is more personalised to them. So what are we doing that allows that to be facilitated? And for us, it's really is that if you've got this record, and this record is is about the learner. But we've built it in such a way that it's, it's easy for the teacher and so far as the form has been really important man in that journey. There's obviously many LMS is there's many products, etc, etc, is how do you redefine that, for us really what we try their best to do is not to be contained by traditional ways of building stuff in that sense. So we've built it or a few years ago, where we've come into the application, you have a feed in these feed, things happen. And there's a teacher, you have one button, and there's only three actions create posts, a next step and an assessment. And that's it. So you're moving away from this kind of large, cumbersome kind of applications to essentially what you'd call being delivered through a social technology experience. So though it was an intentional act to admit when things aren't intentional along this journey, by bringing those three things together, we've been able to have impact with users.
Anna Flockett9:50
That's incredible to say, obvioulsy that you said to do one thing, and then it seems that you've done so much more just seems amazing. And obviously you've touched on kind of how it works and the back But how does it work in terms of like, if I was a teacher, if I was a pupil do just the teacher log on and input the data? Or does the child log on and learn through website? And is it an app and a website? Or one or the other?
Speaker 110:12
Yes, so at the moment where web application, but we also then have native applications for both iOS and Android, and obviously, the form or the device that you're on actually then dictates the experience. Obviously, if you're on a phone, it's more about how do you synthesise or do some quick actions. If you're on obviously, the web application on the iPad app, for example. And then it's much more things that require you to do further things. So we have that scenario, depending on the device, you're on what you do you want it it's kind of different, because that's just how we are in terms of just imagine your kind of Netflix consumption on a laptop might be different to when it's on a on a small device, for example. And so the way it works is that there's kind of four primary users as it is today. So number one is obviously the teacher. And number two is the student number three is the parent and number four is kind of a senior leader within the Institute. And how it works is that and one of the interesting things about Would journey has been is that what happened is, depending on the age of the child and the context, the way the app works will be different. So for example, let's say you're using it in the early years kind of context, right? The teacher is the primary contributor of things within Pinterest. So they might see a child do something they might take a picture might be a video, it might be an audio, tag a child or multiple children, and then pick on them and then publish it. And as a consequence of that, we link it to the curriculum. That means that the parents sees that real time, they're able to then reply, comment and things. So at that point, it's really just the early years is the parent and the teacher I kind of heavily involved in doing stuff. As the child kind of gets older, the child gets more involved in that sense. And then obviously, when the child gets at some point, typically about 10, 11, then they can post things themselves. So it's more about being learner led, rather than the fact it's just one way push from the teacher. And when we get to your kind of formative years of a learner, where it's actually the hardest when learners are more disengaged, and the parents are kind of Too busy, where it's really how you built up the mechanism that the student has more ownership. And so at that point, they're more engaged. And they're all of the teachers but much, much more coach like scenario. So we've tried our best look at kind of design thinking human behaviours, and then pedagogical components and putting all of those through what we've built, to make sure that the contingent on who you are at what point you then the experience necessitates that thing to happen. It will change depending where you are. And then obviously, the context. When I'm coming in even as a teacher perspective, I might say, look, here's, I just want to make a post which is of a type entrepreneur making an announcement. Or actually, this is a pick a piece of homework, or this is a group work. This is a discussion. This is a project that I want you to do Oh, by the way, here's a video of me, even when the teacher response for example. So for example, a teacher posts a piece of work when the student responds to it, and they have the ability to respond via via text via audio, video picture. So we given them that kind of multimedia Which is what they used to when they're using the likes of the snapchats, the kind of tik tok's. And this is how we design a few years ago, obviously, there's a fine balance between those consumer applications and then the fact that we've got something here that is educational and valuable, and not Mickey Mousey, if that makes sense for what we're trying to do. So how do you call it? How do you recycle behaviours? So if you bring those behaviours into what we're doing, but then we've got something serious here, which is around the learners progress, or if there's lack of progress, what are we doing to help alleviate that progress?
Anna Flockett13:31
Definitely seems like it allows more like communication both between the student and the teacher, but also like you said, the parent and the teacher.
Speaker 113:37
Yeah, so that's one of our kind of key design principles. When we started from the beginning. It's kind of the main thing that ties everything together even though we you know, we don't set it just as a communication app or marketing communication, even though that's what it does. I think for us really was around that was really interesting is number one, one of the leading academics from New Zealand back with john Hattie said the greatest contributor to raising standards is feedback to About how you facilitate fast feedback and then if we look at the whole digitization has been happening over the last you know, seven, eight years one of the positives of COVID is going to can accelerate our digital transformation unintentionally but at that point if you look at that when obviously I worked in a number of organisations so we did digital transformation for I wanted them for example in Barclays was look at around those organisations moving that if you're a Sainsbury's for example, you're no longer a grocer. You're also additional business people order online for me, for example, if you're if you're a bank, it's no longer the fact that you know your bricks and mortar thing when I go into the brand. It's you Are you also become a tech business because before that point, is the likes of the Facebook's, the apples, the Amazons, the Googles that we said were tech businesses, whereas now every business is essentially a tech business because of how your customer interaction happens. So for that to happen, organisations have to redesign themselves to say well how are we able to touch the customer, you know, have an engagement with them, and therefore How do we do that is how our feedback mechanisms How our feedback loops are kind of short and impactful, but also short. And here in this session, we're doing the exact same thing, the fact that you post something, anybody, the parent or the student has the ability to respond to that. And that feedback is quicker. So we don't have to wait till the end of the term or some random scenario where a parent might go into school to drop a child and then has a conversation with the humanities teacher, who then says, oh, by the way, Johnny's been and I think for us is it's not just that it's around the nuanced stuff of cumulative things that are happening. And if you then add those things up, it then means that when you have a conversation, that conversation is far, far more nuanced. You've got the insight, you know, what's been going on, and so you can have that conversation around. Okay, so I think this is what's been going on. This is what I think needs to happen next, or actually, we're now noticing that you sometimes you don't even need to have that conversation about what you know, most people are already arriving at the potential scenarios of remediation or resolving or expanding. That's what we're trying to do. And also we're doing it in a way that's kind of non intrusive, if that makes sense. It's just the fact that It's just naturally organically happening that I'm coming in. I'm seeing things popping up in my feed, I can see my timeline, I can see my progress over time and those things that are happening or even as teachers, I can see posts that other teachers are making. So I'm naturally learning from what other people are doing. Just like for example, you might see somebody write a caption on Instagram post anything like that I might use I get or steal a meme or whatever it might be. This is exactly where permeating those behaviours within what we're doing here today,
Anna Flockett 16:27
Definitely. And I'm guessing you guys are based in the UK and and obviously working in like UK schools and but do you work across any other countries as well?
Speaker 116:36
Yeah, what's been super interesting for us is obviously a UK company primary offices in Oxford, but now we have a London presence and a leicester presence. So for us when we started our journey, obviously UK focus for a number of schools here. However, our big kind of adoption or big break came internationally. We started with a number of schools in the United Arab Emirates. So yeah, so we managed to work with a large provider out there got a contract with those guys. And it was a secret number of schools and then we worked with them, and then we got exposed in the international space. And then we kind of build upon that. Unfortunately, we did get distracted by international for about two years between 2017 and 2018. Because of that, but then 2019 onwards, we've kind of had a duel kind of focus, where we're much more embedded and working with UK schools now, as well as the fact of increasing our international footprint. So once again, we've done things slightly differently that we were able to crack the international market before we cracked the domestic market, which was weird in that sense. So So now we have that presence and basically expanding both of those elements in terms of the number of schools within the UK, as well as internationally.
Anna Flockett17:38
It's impressive, though, it's obviously in a good position to be in obviously been cracking the international market as well. So what sort of work has Kinteract been doing in terms of the COVID-19 pandemic?
Speaker 117:49
So I think the first thing to say on that is we've been fortunate along the way. So definitely the things that work in your favour, but also there's a lot of hard work that kind of has gone in and obviously the shout out or the the team I work at CDC on a daily basis to make this possible as well as our board and other peoples who have kind of backed us along the journey in that sense. The other thing was, we've been set up as a remote company since we started since 2016. So we're a remote company with offices rather than the other way around. So one of the super interesting things about the current situation we find ourselves in in terms of COVID-19, is that we've had to make no changes. We weren't at this since 2016. So I have a distributed team within five, six countries, different cities in the UK as well. So it's actually made no change to us, we have not had to scramble to kind of do anything different. So that's one as an organisation, so we were better prepared for this than other people out there. We've been using like tools like slack and all this wonderful stuff since 2013. And so there's been no significant change for us. So we've been well placed to serve our customers also to serve the new people who have come to us. And then the second part of that is around helping schools can i transition because one of the things that we have to recognise is that no one was really prepared for this. And though many would espouse that they weren't the harsh reality and the truth is that People want, especially from a schooling point of view, but we have to shout out and give great credit to schools, to teachers to leaders who've, you know, very quickly and tirelessly worked to ensure that students have a continuty of education whilst being at home. But also at the same time, that throws up a number of challenges. So one of the things that we've tried to do is help schools navigate these challenges. So the first is in terms of access equity is important for us. And one of the things that this pandemic has shown is that it there's a profound understanding that there's that there is a digital divide, still, still going on to that access to even technology isn't equal to it's about how do we support those schools and and then as to be able to that, so the one of the first things that we do, we one of the first out there to offer our platform at no cost to schools, and that no cost is across the board, because obviously there's a process that you have to go through. So we haven't just said no cost to the platform, which is just simply logging in, but you then have to obviously get the data of the schools, I mean, the learners, the teachers, etc, of parents, and then kind of upload those into the system. Have the teachers are ready to kind of use it. So there's obviously time that we spend, it's not just a case of he has a website, you can just go on to it even that part of the process, we were happy to support. And we do that even you know, we're doing it as I speak in that sense. So so first of all of offering access. The second part is then how we help in schools to transition in terms of their thoughts, their processes, in terms of managing learning that which is now a distance rather than being in proximity, I want to give kind of one example of this. So one of the things that we've seen is there's been a huge move, because not only clubs to move to kind of video conferencing facilities. And that's important because obviously, you need to have the video conferencing ability to do that. So obviously, one of the things that we added to the platform, even though as an organisation we've used those tools is to add that feature. So very quickly, within within a week or so we were able to embe that into things so now user can come along, they stay within our platform they remember before I said there's only three actions, we added a fourth option, which is what we put a live lesson to use. It does the same form presses live lesson sets a time and date within our platform. And then they send it and they tag their students, they attached the work, or a pre recorded video, whatever it might be for that lesson. And the user doesn't know that they're using anything else. And then automatically that creates then an invite a video meeting invite for that particular session. And then from that session, obviously, the students are tagged, so the student knows it's for me, the student can see that works. It's really not just saying ego, here's a little button that you can press where you've got zoom available, for example, for us, it's about looking out why we're doing what we're doing. And how do you make sure you have impact, which is not just the tool itself, is what is that tool trying to do? And so if you were to embed that tool, how do you make it helpful? So that's, that was our stage one integration. And our stage two integration, which we're working on right now, is that once you're on Oh, cool, you can see that there are seven kids or you know, 27 students who are on this on this particular call, when you hover over a student on the call contract will then give you a bird's eye view of where that student was at in terms of their last assessments, which does their homework where they have like a red amber green status, so the teacher quickly knows Where the student was. So then when they in that class, they're able to, because if you're not able to pick up the clues that you were when you're in class, right, because the student is like half a metre or a metre away from you. So it's about how do we enhance that experience? Because we have to recognise that this transition to online or distance, there's a pedagogical change that needs to happen to worry about how to eat, how not just the first part of it, but the whole thing around how the learning is happening, and how do we make sure that it's the students benefited? So there's that and then obviously, then the last part of your question was, obviously, we've seen a significant increase in in, in usage. And that's been in on two accounts, really. One is the people who already had a platform and will use as we've seen a 200% increase to be accurate 196% increase. But this was for last month figures we imagined that increased in April. So this was March figures, we saw 196% increase in session activity for our existing users, as well as the fact that I'm you know, we had many inquiries for new schools who wanted to assess the platform, and then try the platform. And obviously, the There's a number of schools that we've on boarded in the month of April. And we continue to do so a number of people who are kind of inquiring on our platform from demo request. information request is being fairly profound, this really cares how we're doing our best to kind of support those those schools. And it's really a case of supporting those schools, not just from a short term perspective, but how does hold them from a from a medium and a long term perspective as well.
Anna Flockett23:20
Yeah, definitely. And so how would you describe your kind of last two months have been for Kinteract has it been, you know, overwhelming, but obviously, in a good way, with the amount of people that have increased their usage or wanted to sign up as well, with obviously everyone having to work remotely.
Speaker 123:35
So I think it's been positive in the sense of when more people are interested in your platform or using it more, it's fulfilling in the sense of why you kind of left what you left to kind of focus on build, what we build, and obviously to continue on our mission on a daily basis, which is the kind of help learners regardless of the path that they want to take in life, and so it's kind of gratifying and rewarding in that sense, but also, it does drop challenges in terms of your own infrastructure. Sure to allow you to support those. And one of the things that's been interesting from from our perspective is in a context right now where there's a lot of ambiguity in terms of the the market, the economy, and you know, people being furloughed and things of that we've actually increased our staff base by about 25%. So that's been positive so far, that we've been able to increase in a time where the trend is the opposite. So that's been nice to do, as well as the fact that we haven't had to make difficult decisions. But that's not to say that there isn't a significant problem right now. Because obviously, if you are a school's facing business and your revenues are generated through school subscriptions, given the chaos that they are going through that, obviously put a strain on on your p&l and those kind of things at the moment work with someone like that, because we think it's important that we can support people doing this, this crisis.
Anna Flockett24:44
Definitely. And I guess you've kind of touched on this slightly, but what is contracts have planned for the future both kind of short term as long as Coronavirus goes on and also then long term afterwards? Did you kind of have a five or 10 year plan and then Coronavirus came along and really erupted it.
Speaker 125:01
So I think what is really the the virus hasn't really significant impacted, I'd say our product focus was in terms of the things that we wanted to build and how we were going to build them. I don't think it's made much of a difference to us, it has made a difference in the sense of ability that people are no longer in schools. So when you were initially doing your how you're approaching schools, and then going out to visit them and going out to you know, events where teachers and senior leaders came to your kind of go to market strategy and how you at how you were engaging users was was was obviously different before. And obviously now with, you know, no travel and teachers not kind of being in schools, it changes your method of engagement, if that makes sense. So that's been kind of interesting to navigate that change. So far, it's been positive for us in terms of the changes we've made, and the kind of the guesses that we've made. It does have to do it have been positive in terms of meaningful conversations that we're having, and obviously, more people using the platform, I think for us really is business. The evolution of contract itself in terms of the things we're doing within it, and how do we remain valuable and cool to users we use on a daily basis. Obviously, through that process, we get feedback from them. And we get feedback from our users. We have feedback from our staff who have conversations with with people, we obviously are attend industry events, we write out events, things like that we write in publications. And so bringing all of that together means that we have a richness of data that tells us what are the kind of things that we should be kind of developing or enhancing within it. And I think for the last two years, it's been a more of a stripping down effect, where even though the platform does a lot more behind the scenes, actually, when you use it, it seems that there's not a lot going on. So I think that simplicity agenda has been profound in terms of when you want it. And it turns out that you're from a user kind of perspective. It's that's the kind of things are looking for, rather than than the fact that you have, you know, 97 features. So we're still focused on that. How do we empower teachers and save them time because that's the key thing of what we're doing. So there's a, there's a number of enhancements that we're working on in terms of helping teachers to kind of auto mark, auto grade, those kind of things. Obviously, the teacher is going to override those the things that we're working on where we bring together the scenario of kind of, I can see that something's happened here, or I've done an assessment. So how do you then bridge that gap between what was known to what needs to happen to kind of remediate that? How does some of that become autosuggestion through using, you know, machine learning and AI? So those kind of things. And so so so so for me, it's those kind of incremental gains of what we do. And so that's the kind of current schooling context so we've started so what not to say, what is this kind of look like kind of once you go, once you post 18? What does that world look like? And much more now also on kind of career pathways? So if we're in the system, and you're 13 years old, I'm thinking of stuff. How does that thinking as a learner then influence the kind of things I might read into it? And I think the other thing that's also happened with the with the current situation, which is things that we've talked about, For a while, but have sort of been listened to, but kind of ignored, which was this around the fact that our education, our structures in education tend to be very much Victorian education, you know, schooling systems and haven't evolved to kind of meet the needs of where we are today, both from an innovation and technology, but also from a fourth industrial revolution, and the kind of jobs of the future. So I think for us, the portfolio that we're building, or that record that we're building has significant implications, because it's enable to then sort of say, how are we using this data because the data doesn't stop when you transition school or transition from nursery to reception is that if you have this continuty of data, those data points become valuable. So there's this there's a number of pieces of what we're doing in terms of the data layer and aggregation pieces. So there's some interesting things. We have a plan.
Anna Flockett28:48
Definitely sounds very exciting. Finally, before we wrap up, and my final question to you today will be Do you have any advice for any other startups out there?
Speaker 128:57
So the general advice is survival is the most important thing. So always, always have that in mind that most organisations or companies that have survived, it's been because of time and patience. So time and patience, time and patience, you know, people imagine that you know, people going through these overnight successes and that's not true. We live in an instant gratification kind of world. So it's a hard endeavour. It's a very lonely endeavour. There's many dark days, we caught up in the corner of the room, but getting it right or seeing people using something that you That was an idea in your head on a daily basis and and benefit from it. That is obviously extremely fulfilling as well. And research well, is another sometimes you can have biases where you emotional attachment to something means that you kind of go in with knowledge information as you it doesn't mean that you research forever, and then you procrastinate and then you never commit but everything's, as we know, it's a fine balance, but by having that balance means that you'll go into something fairly well prepared. Once words I've been spoon feed me. There's just persistence. If you believe in something, generally speaking, you can make it happen. Just the fact that you've got to be prepared for the challenges and the resistances and the obstacles that you're going to face along the way. But most of those are surmountable, and you get through them positive outlook and a kind of growth mindset because it's through difficulty that we, we learn, we improve and we become resilient.
Anna Flockett 30:17
Amazing. Yes. I couldn't agree with you all. She said, thank you so much for joining with me today. It was an absolute pleasure learning more about Kinteract, and it's exciting to see what you guys have got planned for the future.
Speaker 130:28
Thanks very much. Thank you for having me and stay stay safe former
Anna Flockett30:33
Cereal entrepreneur